Holy crap, look at this

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I just wrote an eight-page essay on Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem for these people on sci.math, and look at how they treat me. I barely get an ounce of praise for all my hard work.

Instead, someone seems to have taken a liking to one-starring all of my posts in the thread as the entire forum teams up with innocuous criticisms. People are joining in against me -- possibly in the security that they have all their ************* backing them up -- and they don't even seem to realize that my purpose is to further human knowledge for them! What a royal slap in the face.

On the Love and Dating forum, I once made a comment to the effect that if you kick a dog for bringing you a flower, that dog will feel manipulated. Likewise, when I write an eight-page essay about SUPERNATURAL NUMBERS for a bunch of people who are supposed to be friendly and some idiot comes in and one-stars all of my posts while the herd gathers around to butt heads with the bringer of generosity, it motivates me to do awful, despicable things to people.

You don't like Mr. Nice Guy? Fine, I'll just rip your head off. How's that for ya, Happy Bunny?

Look, look. I brought you a flower! Isn't that sweet of me? What are you going to do now? Smash it with your foot and laugh in my face as you drive me to the nearest weapon? What the f*** is wrong with you? I bring you love! I bring you knowledge! You ************ better shape up and let me be who I am: a nice man who does good deeds, who does not want to end up behind bars because some idiots thought they could manipulate me into doing something violent.

MY... FEELINGS... MATTER.

If you want to see the essay, it's right here:

Supernatural Numbers and Undecidable Arithmetical Statements

I put a lot of thought into it.

Here's the link to sci.math: New essay on Goedel's Incompleteness Theorem. I'm posting under 'Scott H' there.

*sigh* What a world of SsstuuuUUUUuupid people...

(I ended up starring out a lot of what I wrote due to the sheer intensity of my anger, but I didn't want to throw the post away. Here it is.)

Well, you should definatley stop wasting anymore time on these people. I'm sure you could apply your attention towards people that are more grateful, if that makes any sense...

I know that the WP rules state that we must post in a supportive manner in this forum. But with all due respect, your essay does lack mathematical rigor. By the way, do you have a more formal definition of Supernatural Numbers?

Mike, for what it's worth I am sorry for how they treated you.

I have spent my entire life bending over backwards for people and all they do is take what they want from me and then abandon me once they've had their fill. I am growing increasingly bitter because of this. Don't let them change you.

Don't let them win. You are not alone.

'reads each link a little and can't understand $%^ practicaly'

I wander if dissagreeing is what causes this frustration for you, because it isn't real avoidable. The effort should have been noted though, I admit.

If you want to know who around WP is stupid with math, one of those would be me. I forgot over half my times tables, and still screw up simple subtracting, for god sakes! I'm quite pathetic for a 31 daughter of an accountant.

Last edited by LiendaBalla on 26 Sep 2009, 11:22 pm, edited 4 times in total.

"The Haven
For those times when you're feeling blue and need to get a little help from your friends. Discuss all those issues that are not covered by the other forums in the Coping in life category."

He needed to vent. He did it in the correct forum. I think you're reply was incredibly rude.

I totally agree with j0sh. Paddy's response was unnecessary and uncalled for.

I liked and appreciated your essay, MikeH. I'm sorry if posters on sci.math were unkind. Do you think they feel threatened by your intellect (and writing ability)? In my experience, only a small percentage of mathematicians write extremely well.

Mike, how far in education did you go? Part of your problem is that a lot of the people in sci.maths probably have Masters or PhDs or at least are familiar with the norms of academic culture while you may be not. I ask because the thread says something about you being self-taught. Also, your complaint about not being praised for your effort is not something I'd expect to see from anyone who has even passing familiarity with academic culture. It's something I'd expect to see from someone who has done high school and may be undergraduate. A lot of the anger here may come from not understanding what is considered "proper" in academic (and academic like circles).

Mike you will save yourself a lot of future frustration if you realize that in intellectual pursuits such as higher mathematics and science, how much effort you put into it matters little if the answer does not make sense or is not correct.

People will *not* give you beanies for effort, only for results. Don't expect it and you will be much happier. I know in high school people get grades partly because of effort and this has extended to undergraduate a bit too. But past that it doesn't matter if you put 10 years into it, effort does not count for anything.

It may be harsh for the ego (which is why in these fields you need a tough skin) but really would you want it any other way? Think about Godel himself. His incompleteness theorem invalided the life's work of a lot of mathematicians. Should he have held himself back from publishing because it would hurt their feelings? Progress tends to make someone obsolete or wrong i.e. someone's feelings are always going to be hurt. Looking at the thread, I don't see anything too horrible. I've heard worse at conferences. They just seem to be commenting on weaknesses in your proof. Academic types (especially in science and maths) tend to be fairly blunt and say what they think.

Studies say that there is a higher proportion of women in mathematics than in say physics or chemistry because maths is fairly black and white - you either proved the theorem or you didn't. So there is less chance to discriminate in hiring practices. Given that I suspect that if everyone in the thread didn't like your proof you probably did do something wrong.

You will gain a lot more respect from the sci.maths group if you took the criticism well (though vent a bit elsewhere like here) and then come back with something else. Whatever you do, do *not* post this vent on sci.maths. I don't do much teaching myself but one of the most common vents I've heard from those who teach is about undergraduates who expect grades for effort because that is what happened in high school. It is a sensitive point amongst academics so if you say on sci.maths "I expected some praise at least for the effort I put in" everyone there will brand you, I think the common insult nowadays is "snowflake". At this point they may consider you someone who has taught himself, may be enthusiastic but still fairly rough but with possible potential. Complain about something similar to this on sci.maths and any respect they have for you will disappear. I'd advise you to get a new username at that point.

I just hope no-one on sci.maths find this thread. Which may be possible as a lot of maths types have Aspie tendencies.

But as I said, *don't* expect any plus points for effort in the future and then you won't get aggravated when sci.maths don't give you any. Then you will be much happier.

Oh and also from their POV the ones being "generous" are actually them for taking the time to read and comment on your work. This is not because you are an outsider. It is because there is a vast amount of "noise".

If you look at citation rankings, you will find that the vast majority of papers (published by academics in reputable journals) get very few citations. The top 1-5% of papers receive the lion's share of attention. Go 20 years in the future and even fewer of the papers will be remembered.

Basically even amongst PhDs in tenured positions in universities, there are a million and one voices crying out for attention. As a student and as a junior academic one of the chief problems is finding senior staff who are willing to read and comment on your work before publication. Even after publication I was always happy to find someone who yes, actually *read* my paper. Yes, it *is* like that. Having been there myself, I can understand why. There are so many papers coming out, especially if you are in a large field that if you spend all your time reading papers (and pre-publications) you will never get a chance to do anything else. I used to have stacks of unread papers in my office. I am not joking. And I lots of other people with the same problem. If you had teaching and research duties as well and conference deadlines and it can go on forever...You learn to read papers by scanning the abstract, the ending and figures (OK, maths may be different) to see if it is interesting and then may be continuing or going to journal club meetings. It is usually only if the paper is particularly interesting or if say it is from a student or friend that you give your full undivided attention to it, esp. if it is long.

So from their POV the fact that so many of them took the time out to read and comment on your (long!) paper is a sign of their generosity to you (especially since you are an outsider).

That's another reason for not posting this rant on that newsgroup. Not only will you bring back bad memories of undergraduates saying "I deserve a A because I put a lot of effort into it, even if it is completely off-topic. In high school I got As for effort." but from their POV they will consider you an ingrate.

I'm just warning you about these things now because if you tried it on sci.maths they will likely tell you the same things, just with a lot more insults and your reputation will be forever ruined.

To Paddy789: If someone stabbed you in the chest or murdered someone you loved, what would you want to be told? "Stop whining and get over it?" If you don't care about my feelings, why should anyone care about yours?

In case you were wondering, this little incident isn't the only thing bothering me. You'd commit the Fallacy of the Single Cause to think that. Now get off the forum, you insensitive twit.

To Jono: My essay does contain mathematical rigor, and I was hoping for constructive feedback.

To fengshuiiiii: Thank you so much for your sympathy. We need more nice people in the world.

To LiendaBalla: It's not disagreement that causes me to become so angry. A number of senseless misfortunes come together at once -- not just forum incidents, but retching, auditory hallucinations, and people like Paddy789. If it weren't for these additional contributors, I might not have become so angry.

To AnnieK: I'm not only angry about not receiving praise. I'm upset that I get such negative feedback for an intellectual accomplishment that took over ten years of reflection, and, if you have read my posts, that I'm rarely mentally rewarded for nonviolent acts.

I don't think many people know what it's like to hear voices calling you a freak while you're trying not to get angry. It's not as simple as remembering your beloved wife and kids, because you have no wife, and you have no kids. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that being made to live in torment can make you angry.

Right now, I feel like Lady Luck has just bitchslapped me. I'm trying to be careful not to call her a baby-burping sadist. It just seems like the whole world is out to pull my strings and have a laugh at the boy who experienced Hell on Earth.

P.S. Did anyone else notice that Paddy789's screen name sounds like 'Paaaaiiiinnn' with a Pat the Bunny kind of sound to it? Maybe we have a troll on our hands?

That may be true Mike - but the thing is the people who tormented you are not these people. And as I explained the way they are acting is normal, even generous by standards in the academic world. They are not trying to torment you or make you feel bad. They don't know you from squat.

If you try to take your unresolved anger (to other people in the past) out on them, all it will do is make the current people you are communicating with turn on you now. So vent here definitely, but in your actual communications with them keep your cool.

May be you did spend 10 years doing work. But look in Godel, whose theorem your work is based on - he is famous for, in one fell swoop, basically telling a generation (may be two generations actually) of mathematicians that the holy grail you just spent the last few decades of your life looking for - it doesn't exist. You just wasted a large part of your life. Such is life in intellectual pursuits.

It is one of the chief characteristics of science and maths that effort counts for nothing and results everything. It is one of its beauties of these disciplines. If it wasn't so ruthless it wouldn't be half as respected as it is today. I'm sorry, but sci.math will not be unique in this. Everywhere you go to ask for comments on your work where there are people who actually know what they are talking about will be similar.

I know that feeling very well, and being aware of our use of that word "seems" is crucial to getting past it. I share your deeply-rooted anger, and I know what it is like to walk on the brink of homicide while experiencing it.

Not all of even our harshest critics actually view life as a blood sport ... and in my having learned that, I now know it is *not* the entire world that is out to pull my strings and ultimately laugh over my grave.

Forget the folks who seem to act that way (whether or not they actually do) and only fellowship with the rest of us who obviously do not.

Thank you all for your continued support. It's so nice to see a group of mature posters on the internet.

I know that at times, I can come across like a furious, fire-breathing dragon. I'm doing what I can to express in words what causes me all this unbearable anguish. I also want you to understand that I'm deliberately avoiding suicide to protect certain people (the physically deformed and handicapped, for example), even in the midst of this anguish.

After what Paddy said, I retched. That was even after taking an antacid tablet. I'm not sure what's going on, but it feels like someone out there is really trying to put me in the chokey.

AnnieK: I don't share your pessimism in regard to the foundations of mathematics. If anything, we can at least do what we can to clarify Goedel's theorems in preparation for future advancement.

Just remember this:

I was never locked up for the way I thought or felt -- only for the way I acted.

I own my own thoughts and feelings today without regard for how anyone else acts.

I've been locked up about ten times already.

And I've never even pulled a knife on anyone. Whenever that S-word comes up, they can just haul you in. It's like you're not even allowed free speech.

I read your essay and the comments. I need to point out that it seems to me that they were just pointing out weaknesses in your arguments. I'm in academic circles myself and have been to physics conferences. I can tell you that in academic circles you can expect to receive criticism and most people don't like it if they feel they have put a lot of work into it. The thing is that we need to take those criticisms and learn from them. Or at least be prepared to defend against them when they are made.

EDIT: When you're feeling better, you can have a more detailed discussion here if you want.

Last edited by Jono on 27 Sep 2009, 11:09 am, edited 1 time in total.