Reasons to die versus reasons to live

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Reasons to die:

- As it seems, I will never find my true love, in this life. I have already tried several times and it has always ended, one way or another, with time. All I have done has been to waste time that I should've spent on/with a hypothetical girl who maybe doesn't even exist in this world. I also cannot risk being bold in my decisions, regarding this, since losing my virginity to the wrong person would be far worse than staying alone and dying alone.

- Based on my experiences, I believe humans may be incapable of true love, and therefore, it would be better if I became some other being on some other world, instead. How does "I don't know what I would do without you", "You are my everything" and "I couldn't live without you" so easily turn into something quite different? Maybe I am even incapable of it, myself. I am a human, after all. Sometimes, I wish to think I am not, since the last thing I feel is human, but everything indicates that I indeed am human, so it'd be unreasonable to think otherwise.

- No matter how much I'd want to, I can't ever "become" (so to speak) anything, anymore (unless I'd win on the lottery, which I, of course, won't), due to legal changes to the education system of Sweden, which leave it impossible for people who dropped out of school to get the same educational possibilities as people who had luck on their side, on their first try, and weren't so depressed, for one thing. Not that "becoming" something would make me the slightest bit happy, of course.

- I have no one to frequently talk with, to whom I can be open with about who I actually am. I do enjoy talking to my hairdresser, for those 45 minutes or so, once every two months, but if she knew some things about me, such as specifics regarding my BDSM interests, she would freak out, 99 percent guaranteed.

- The corruption and/or incompetence of the human species is severely upsetting and disturbing me, such as in regards to the GMO industry, among countless other things. Even here in civilized Sweden, if you rape, you can get maybe just half a year in prison, under some circumstances, and photographing or recording people naked and uploading it to the Internet isn't even illegal, here, due to the importance of media freedom, as it seems. Apparently, it is more important for vile gossip magazines to be allowed to show photos of naked princesses than it is important to protect the integrity of someone visiting a public bathroom, or who passes out from too much alcohol or other drugs, and are violated, as they are out of it. Meanwhile, you can get many years in prison for tax fraud. Even minor file sharing of copyrighted material is illegal, since the Swedish government caved in to the U.S. putting a trade embargo on this country, otherwise, in similarity to the one put on Cuba (the affair regarding The Pirate Bay). No one pressured them to protect people from having their lives ruined from candidly taken nude or sex photos or videos, however, so who cares, right? At least not the majority of the Swedish politicians.

- Generally, the food is full of bugs, either tiny or in pieces, and soon even will be severely contaminated with GMO, since it is bound to spread everywhere through cross-pollination, among other things. As such, even eating is a difficult subject, to me, and will be even more so, once GM crops have started spreading everywhere. Now, the U.S. even is opening up for GMO salmon. While they allegedly all will be sterile, and while fish do not cross-pollinate, let's hope that none of the fish that are bred will ever mutate, and get back the fertility, again. However, GM salmon cross-breeding with non-GM salmon should be the least of one's worries, in today's world. Worst case scenario, it will wipe out the salmon species and leave a large portion of humanity and marine animals sick, since genetically modified organisms indeed are dangerous, as the changes that are made in the genetics are applied according to the Central Dogma theory, which has been proven false, in the light of the Human Genome Project. The consequences of the poisonous GM crops that currently are spreading uncontrollably will be far worse, however, and possibly wipe out all pollinating insects and lead to damaged DNA among all types of life forms - which is why GM salmon isn't a large worry of mine, even if the added growth hormone gene later will prove to genetically transfer to unsuspecting people who eat it, leading to uncontrolled growth among future generations of people. With the outlook of the world being so pitch dark, even such a scenario, from this salmon, would be moderate compared to the consequences that will come to full light, sooner or later, regarding GM crops.

- I have nothing to be happy about, anymore... not even anime enjoys me much, anymore, nor do videogames. I did enjoy watching a bit of the anime Chobits, yesterday and today, though.... however, fantasizing over a world where self-aware robot girlfriends can exist only lasts for so long. Additionally, even if they did exist today, I would definitely be paranoid over surveillance applications that the manufacturer(s) would have secretly put into it, and as such, I would not be able to get one, anyway.

- I already am 31 years old, and soon my age is bound to start showing, no matter what I do, health-wise. I could never deal with getting old, so this is a huge deal to me. I could never deal with losing my appearance, as well. While my appearance has proved to be unimportant, so far, in regards to finding my true love, losing it still would be a huge deal to me. All I have basically are good looks. At least I can look in a mirror and be happy about what I see, and be able to imagine a future girlfriend/wife who likes it, as well... someone who is happy about everything, and doesn't feel the need to convince herself of things that are "unimportant".


Reasons not to kill myself:

- My mom will get totally heartbroken, but she already knows I am suicidal, with no help available for me, ever, and with nothing she can do other than being kind to me, so at least it will be a bit easier for her, because of that. She knows full well that the psychiatry never has been of any benefit to me, and she knows I like her, so she wouldn't have to feel that she could have done anything, because she knows that I have tried to get out of this loneliness, several times, and always failed, every time.... I have tried and she fully knows it, and finding my true love is the single thing which would bring me out of this misery, and one can hardly expect her to be required to find that girl for me, so therefore, she would not have to feel that she could have done something.

- My dad will possibly partially blame himself, because of everything bad he's ever said to me, and I imagine it will lead to a distance between my parents, if he finds out that my mom always knew I was suicidal. It will probably lead to a much earlier death for him, as well. This would especially be the case for my mom, though. She has already told me, once, that she couldn't live with it if I killed myself.

- The more I think about needing to kill myself, and the more I seem to "have" to do it, the more anxiety I get about it. Jumping off a building is unthinkable.... so is hanging, and that'd be terrifying for whoever found me, as well (likely my mom).... carbon monoxide poisoning seems the most appealing, but there are ways even that can go wrong, and in such a case, I could end up mentally handicapped, afterwards, maybe even unable to retry. Everyone knows I would want assisted suicide, if I ever ended up in such a state, but who knows, maybe it'd be too difficult for them to go through with. Possibly, my mom would spend every day of the rest of her life tending to me, sitting in a wheelchair. A horrifying thought. Why aren't people supplied with an off switch? Like, you would have to turn it on and then wait a year for it to take effect. That way, you would have plenty of time to change your mind. It would be possible if humans were robots, instead.... to think: out there, there actually is a planet of robots with this merciful system in place. If only I lived on that planet. However, considering that I then would be a robot, maybe I wouldn't even have to use it, as design differences in the robots would make it far more likely for me to find my true love.

Keep yourself alive. I think life is a pretty good gift. I was where you are but actually went all the way to a serious suicide attempt. I guess, to me, it's to just take it from day to day and try to keep busy.

Hey even a Gerbil instinctively knows the answer to that one. Think you might be overthinking this. Life has always been uncertain but death is certainly an end to the one chance you get at it.

in no way being disrespectful of those in suicidal straits, i wonder what the suicide rate would be every everybody knew for a fact that if they did it, that they would only have to relive the same old life over as it was, until they finished it on natural schedule?

have similar reasons for and against, the one thing i think that is keeping me alive is how much of a gamble it is.

i try to think of it like this, i can keep going through the pain and suffering in the hope that things get better or i can end it now and definetly not have things get better.

then there is the unknown gamble of death itself and what may or may not be beyond it.
i think these are the main reasons why im still going really, and keeping busy does seem to help a little.


anyway i know this probably isnt very helpful but just thought id share

shakespeare had a lot to say about the subject-

“To Be Or Not To Be”: Spoken by Hamlet, Act 3 Scene 1

To be, or not to be: that is the question:
Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep;
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to, ’tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish’d. To die, to sleep;
To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there’s the rub;
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause: there’s the respect
That makes calamity of so long life;
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
The oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s contumely,
The pangs of despised love, the law’s delay,
The insolence of office and the spurns
That patient merit of the unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscover’d country from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all;
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o’er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry,
And lose the name of action.–Soft you now!
The fair Ophelia! Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remember’d.

Woah!
Ok, first:
wow! Just .. wow.

(Now when it's written, this reply of mine looks very silly and very pointless (although it feels completely normal in my head) :/ but I (hope I) will go against my nature and post it. I'm sorry for egocentrism in advance -.- )

I was clicking around the Internet searching for whatever-I-was-wasting-my-time-with-tonight when I stumbled upon this website and saw the "Reasons ...suicide...life" title among the links on the right (which I thought were links to some articles, I must add).
"Alright," I said rolling my eyes, "Yay. Another one of *those* hypocritical anti-suicide articles. Great."
I clicked on it nevertheless (guess I was that bored).

So I started reading what I thought was some copy paste/research/article.
The first sentence was already: " O_O Heyyyy, that's not an article..." Very soon, after "wasting time" and "maybe not even existent in this world" I was much more like: "Wow, now that sounds very familiar..." -.-
I always knew I'm one of the rare ... looking-for-the-proper-word who think like that. So each time when I see someone who holds the same opinions my little black boohoo heart goes all: "Aww, aren't you adorable. "

From "Based on my experiences, I believe humans may be incapable of true love...." on,
I was seriously surprised O__O
(Although I now hold an opinion that 80-90% are too selfish to be capable of honestly loving another being, in that particular romantic way ~shrugs~ )

I'll be extremely (and rarely so) honest and will try to express myself. This rant of yours scared, surprised and touched me in the same time (well, if I was capable of emotions, that is. I cried inside ), because I would write the same. Almost the same (98% almost anyway. Among other things, GMO? Seriously? I'd say a nuclear World War more likely ::fingers crossed:: ^.^)
(Minus or plus a few details and differences between us )
It's not only what you wrote but also how you wrote it. Well O.O
Pretty scary, mate. Anyway...

I know I'm not special nor unique (hey, I have Internet!) but when I stumble upon a post like this, a post I could have (almost!) signed as my own, it's like a reality slap and an absurd doze of silly, humanly hope to my almost non-existent positivity.

I usually (read: NEVER) reply to random suicidal posts on the internet, *let alone* registered at random forum to be able to reply to a random suicidal post (it took me 1 hour to make up my mind whether I will actually register or just leave, 2 hours to decide whether I will really reply and another 2 hours to compose this haha )
But ... I don't know there's something about this one ...

Anyway,

Uhm,
first,
I'm sorry I'm a little bit... emotionally unconventional so I will not tell you don't kill yourself, why not, nor anything like that.
(Actually I think there's too much hype about suicides whereas it's pretty simple: death is unavoidable. Should be personal will, or at least accepted as something natural, and not being such a taboo. Yes, yes, an off switch of sorts

So I won't talk against suicide, that's not the reason I wrote this post. Besides anything else, it would be very hypocritical of me.
Ages ago, I decided that (if I will not die in the meantime) I will kill myself between age 30 and 33.
It's been 11 years since I made that decision (I'm 26 now) and nothing changed. My reasons are almost the same as yours, only slightly different in a few details.

But enough with my the egocentric babbling; I am curious:

as I said, I feel very very.. well, I feel the same.
But on the other hand, I never had the urge nor I could bother explaining it, let alone online. Not even writing in a diary or anything similar.
I mean it's not like I keep it to myself, in my difficult-to-pretend-I'm-normal honest moments, I tell people; I told my family and most of my close friends that I will end myself and when and why.
But leaving a forum topic of this sort where one debates why and why not... Well so I wonder; why? O_O
Oh I've seen quite a few emo-suicide topics in my internet time, but you actually seem reasonable* about this, so I was wondering why posting it?
(*I maybe mistaken about this because you brought out my soft side, haha )

You know how they say about notes; those are written with a purpose. So I was wondering, is there's a certain purpose you wrote this post for, or is there still a certain ... however foolish... hope - the tiny little spark you won't even admit to yourself and it's still there? And what for?

No need to answer, I just shared my thoughts (- with the world. Gawd bless internet -.-)

Second,
as I stated, I have my "difficult-to-pretend-I'm-normal honest moments; in the past few years, I've been telling (some of the) people (on occasions) about my suicide decision. Over the years, I got many many interesting reactions, and I've been in many debates on the topic.

But the best comment, the one I like hearing,
the same one I keep on repeating to myself whenever I feel like 'giving up' on my '33' plan
is:
Since we're due to die anyway; where's the rush?

Okay, just to get this straight before you go: "OMN(on-existent)G here she goes with reasons"

Honestly, I feel in pain. Yes, pain. I can admit it. I'd go as far as saying it's physical pain sometimes.
I feel very very ill, I suppose you know. What's the difference? I wake up every day in pain, live my life in pain and I go to sleep in pain, then wake up again and repeat the process. Sometimes the pain is strong, sometimes it's just a nagging feeling in the back, sometimes I can't breathe and I feel I'm suffocating...
So no, I know it's no fun.
It's been going on for more than a decade now. Seriously, wish I'd been physically ill, by now I would have been either cured or dead.
So my point is: I know it's no fun. And I too see no point in looking down and enduring like it's something one actually needs to do... Feels like I'm on a jail sentence and I need to endure until I got released (except that it's a life sentence. And freedom = death. Literally.)

But
I have these moments... Inspirations... Sensations... and they are worth all the pain.

No, these are not my reasons 'why not', these are my reasons 'why not yet', and no, there's no happiness for me in this world, and yes, I don't believe I belong here, and no, I will never fit in no matter how great my shield and my acting skills are, and yes, I stand by my decision, but
... BUT

Don't you... sometimes ... see those perfect little moments? When everything around you feels, looks, smells, senses different, surreal, out-of-this-life and that brings you a moment of tranquility? Don't see it? Think

Per example, while walking down the street, randomly, on a regular night, don't you ever sense the random scent in the wind that no one seems to notice and you ponder and try to imagine what it is, where it comes from, what world it comes from, what time .... ?
Or do you ever notice how the smell of coffee early in the morning and the scent of lavender in the room make such a blissful combination?
Or fragrance of sea and salt in the soft summer breeze that touches you right on the face ; or the smell of spring in February or Paris in the rain or New York in August or London in autumn leaves ; or the dance of clouds on the sky right in front of your eyes while you're laying on grass, breathing in that wonderful "water-ish" scent of mud and plants - smell of Earth ;
or the colours, bright vivid colours of gardens in spring when everything blooms and blossoms ; and the snow, so pure, so beautiful ; or the sea that always feels alive, that always sing ;
or .... have you ever been in the forest, at night, when all around you, even the trees felt alive and everything moved and had the scent so vivid, and through you the wind howls a song so real you could almost recognize the words, and the moon shines so bright, so inviting it's almost smiling at you, and you could stand there, right there, and stare at it for days?

(But then if you stop and start thinking how the nature is polluted by humans and how there's no solace, no escape from the grasp of human civilization .... urgh, okay okay, won't go there now.)

Yes?
You know what I'm talking about?
Great!
That's the beauty in presence.
Well. That is the beauty in presence to me.

Those rare moments I don't regret although they are a few... Yet, YET, those moments are so precious to me that it's worth enduring the pain for a little while. Just to have a few more....

OR

You don't (feel the same)?
:/
Oh okay.
Well, hm...
I'm sorry. Maybe your preferences are different :/

But, if nothing else, think about this:
Hey,
at least you got a completely randomly passing fellow misanthropic I-don't-consider-myself-human on the internet to respond completely honestly and wholeheartedly to your post.
How cool is that, ha? ~smiles~

This is not - at least not everything I wished to say or how I wished to say it, but I can't express my thoughts this openly, and since I've already written a novel, I'll stop right here.

Erm...
Wishing you the best!
(Honestly, yes.
Damn empathy...)



P.S.

Sorry, my egomania won't let me skip this::
I barely checked this sub-forum and I haven't read the rest of the forum (sorry Mister Admin, I haven't read the FAQ -.-) nor your profile - but just this once, I'll take another person is being honest and not into some oh-please-look-at-me-wristcutting-attention-whoring.

But if, by any chance, you are a oh-please-look-at-me-wristcutter and this is some attention-whoring joke, all I have to say is:
::applause::
Bravo! Got my attention.
Now please go on... ~grabs popcorn~ Don't forget: down the road, not across the street.

Last edited by Milady on 18 Jan 2013, 5:47 am, edited 4 times in total.

^^^
hiya Milady and welcome to our forum

~tilts head~
Hey, thanks, really

But uhm,
aren't we a bit ...
... off topic? >.> Breaking the forum rules and stuff? <.<

Wow. I sense this will be the first time that I, not only registered on a random forum to reply to a random suicidal post, but also got instantly banned >.>

Uhm, ~bites lips~ alright anyway, here's a little on topic conversation >.>
Yea. Sorry for the novel. I was being honest, tho.
That said, I'm outta here. Cheers folks!

Dead men tell no tales

Most of your reasons to die could be solved by getting the heck out of Sweden, and getting over your fear of GMOs, or getting involved in activism to criminalize un-consensual photography.

I noticed a major omission in your reasons to live: experiencing the small things that you feel good about in life, esp. food.

if you could find the love of your life
then would you continue to live

but let me tell you there is nothing like love of life etc
they are just fairy tales, fiction,

i always wanted to get away from my sadistic parents
and find my soulmate, love of my life etc

now that i got married (arranged marriage)
i still suffer from depression
and still contemplate suicide from time to time

i guess depression is a sickness like any other sickness
you need to get help, medication, prozac

there is no other way out of it

Beauty_pact

You never know what great things are around the corner.

Yours was actually an amazing first post. Its great to see you here.

OP: Sometimes thinking outside the box may yield amazing solutions & different ways to approach and solve one's problems.

Thanks for the post, Milady.... and I'm definitely glad you decided to post it. It actually cheered me up. -.- I am glad that I cheered you up, as well, despite the negativity in the post... but finding like-minded people is of course a nice thing... and it did not at all read as nonsensical, to me. I must say, it's surprising to see that my post affected you so much, though.... and then it at least wasn't pointless of me to post it, at the very least. Finding like-minded persons is always comforting, I think... so I am not in all that dark a mood, right now... thanks to having read your post. I am thankful for the time and effort you put into it, as well.

...Hmm, you don't seem to be banned at all, by the way. You wouldn't be able to post, either, if you had been banned. Why do you/did you think you have been banned?

Since you brought it up, I have never meant to be posting just for the sake of attention and nothing else. However, I do indeed post with the *hope* of attention, but that is a completely different thing, of course. Kind of pointless to post if you don't want anything to come of it. The reason I posted this was in fact because I *do* have a tiny spark of hope, even if it indeed is small, and like your life, my life feels like a prison... just like a prison, almost every day. When I wake up in the morning/afternoon/evening/night (yes, it is totally random, all too often), it often takes me hours to get out of bed, as doing so feels so pointless. I finally manage to get up when I realize that I simply won't be able to sleep, anymore. Sleeping is my escape, as even if I can't remember my dreams, or if I have nightmares, I at least won't be awake. As such, waking up always is such a disappointment. I do have anime, of course, but few animes are interesting enough for me, even if this Chobits anime actually seems like one of the best I have ever seen... I actually am enjoying it a lot, although episode 7 kind of freaked me out a bit. :/ Next episode to watch will be episode 13... so I've watched almost half of it, now... :/ meh. Anyway, the tiny spark of hope is of course for finding my true love, somehow. Nothing else could cure me from this misery. I would of course get depressed over things like GMO, the surveillance society, rapists, corruption and disasters like the multiple nuclear meltdowns in Japan, but having her, I could easily cope with it. Even if the world would truly end, soon, I would have her. To think of just waking up in the morning with her by my side, facing me as I wake up, sleeping. How could I be depressed if I saw that? My life would be everything *but* a prison, then..... I actually still would want to die by my own hand, in the future, anyway, as I do not want to grow old, but that'd be a happy kind of suicide. Yes, that is another, very large obstacle regarding finding the one for me. =_= It's slightly ironic how I get anxiety over feeling that I am at a point where I "have" to do it soon, when I actually desire a romantic suicide pact with my true love... even if I recently have been thinking less and less about romantic things, as I have been getting more and more hollow, inside. :/ Oh, and since I have been attacked for these desires of mine, I want to point out that it is something that would have to be absolutely consensual.... otherwise, it would hardly be the slightest bit romantic, either. And I do know that the vast majority will see this as a sign of mental illness, but the truth is, as you say, that death is inevitable, anyway, so why wait for it to occur in an ugly, "natural" way, rather than in a beautiful, romantic way...? If you are to die, anyway, then why not die when you still are happy with things? Not that I even believe in death, though; rather, in the case of two true loves joining in "death", together, they would be happily together in the afterlife, for eternity and beyond. The only thing of concern is to die in a safe way. >_> And for critics that would try to make me question if there is an afterlife.... one of the things I would definitely never question is the presence of an afterlife, so talking about valuing "this one life you have" just sounds silly to me... not meaning to offend those who see it that way, but it really does sound silly. -_-

Oh, and as for when to die.... I used to be set on 34, myself, but I am not very far away from that date, so I kind of moved the date to "at least before forty"... haha. =_= So I suppose 39 or before is my date, now, unless the aging process somehow could be halted, soon.... which would require GM technology, though, probably, but I actually am not opposed to genetical engineering - rather, I am opposed to the current incompetence of all genetical engineering, since DNA *does not* work like Lego bricks. Rather, it is a complex system of integration where putting in or taking out parts will lead to a crumbling of the system. I also am opposed to the generally self-serving ideas of the companies behind it, the immense corruption of most of these companies, the recklessness of how it is done and, of course, also patents on life. I actually don't believe humans have enough intellect to ever do this properly, though, so any studies on genetical engineering should stay very safely in the laboratories until humans become more modest... somehow.

...And yes, I do get those "perfect" moments, but it was quite a while ago, by now.... honestly, though, when I do get them, I think of them as possible moments in the future, with my true love... so basically visions of what I dream of. Maybe that is not what you meant, though. However, many moments can be sort of "perfect", even without her in mind.... environmental perfections, for example, like some of what you mentioned.



Evinceo: I'm not really into food, to be honest..... it can be tasty and all, but it hardly is any sort of reason to stay around. However, anime might be a bit of a reason, but Japan recently has expanded its censorship laws, so not sure how many more good animes there will ever be, again. :/



namaste: Yes, I would definitely want to continue to live, if I found my true love.... as long as both of us could remain youthful, anyway. :|

....I'm sorry that you still are unhappy. :( I wish there was something I could say.

I might also share your interests in both BDSM and political activism.  My fantasies used to be something I felt very guilty about and wanted to go away but, but . . . more people have them than freely acknowledge and I've come to see them as a source of strength.  For example, seeing through the silliness of workplace bullying, or like an (American) football player understanding the wrongness of a "cheap shot."  

I encourage you to take the next step toward political activism, and I encourage you to work a variety of issues.  Now, straight up, my experiences with peace activism during the Persian Gulf war 1990-91 were disappointing.  Fellow activists seem to shy away from people who are "weird."  Some of it is that they've gone through recent personal growth and are more in a consolidation phrase, and some of it I think is that they've heard enough about FBI informers and the like to be somewhat on guard.  So, I might have more luck with a more mainstream group where they might be more open to original creative people.

The little bit I know about Genetically Modified Organisms is (1) it's not as scientific as people might think, often the companies are merely shooting DNA with other molecules and seeing what happens, and (2) governments have deferred to large corporations and at times have merely rubberstamped what the corporation has been doing anyway.  We have not been having the public discussions like we should be having, and there is definitely room for activism.

As far as any kind of philosophical basis, I think there's something to utilitarianism.  Even with it's hundred and one dilemmas, it's hard to argue that preventing suffering and facilitating happiness are worthwhile goals in and of themselves.  So one definition might be, Act to most improve the future package of experiences for all sentient beings.  Now, this doesn't include rights and one could argue that rights are 'too strange a bird' to be woven into the fabric of the universe.  Or . . . one could argue that rights are an emergent property just like melody in music, and once life evolved in complexity so that animals had personality, clearly at the stage of bears and probably earlier, there is in the universe such a thing as rudimentary rights.

As far as true love and people saying things like "You are my everything" and then that no long being the case.  I am in favor of medium steps.  And there might even be a case for a slower model.  Back in the 1950s and 60s, people planned to wait till marriage to have sex but often ended up having sex after they were engaged.  And even with longstanding relationships and whether they'll continue to last, maybe high nineties in the percentiles, maybe going through quiet phases like seasons, I just don't know.  I would be open to interesting to thoughtful, heartfelt autobiographies which discuss this.