upset by something I saw today

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Today I took my grandma to the dentist and in the waiting room there was an aboriginal (black) woman and her two kids aged 5 and 7 she told me she and the kids had been there since 10am and it was now 2pm. The kids were getting ratty as they do at that age when they are bored and tired but not particularly bad then the little boy decided to play fight with his sister and pushed her (gently) into the wall. The mother then all of a sudden got up and really started laying into the kid physically, the child then got really resentful and a short time later retorted back "f**k you mum, you can go f**k yourself you f*****g b***h and I hate you". The mother replied "I hate you too and I am going to take you to the rubbish (trash) tip, I don't want you anymore you aren't going to live with me". Of course the child should not have talked to his mum like that and there should have been consequences like taking away privileges and it was wrong. However given how she reacted to him and talked to him it was hardly surprising he talked the way he did or that he had no respect. To get respect from kids you have to respect kids. I also understand that she probably didn't want to "make a scene" but by doing what she did it actually made more of a scene in fact everyone was looking at her in a very evil way you could tell they did not approve of what she had done to her son. In my country and culture we have an anti violence anti spanking campaign with slogans like "violence against children, we say no", "if you see something say something" and "violence is violence". However I did not intervene as I didn't know what the mother was capable of however I was very upset for quite a few hours afterwards at what I had seen. Kids are little people and they deserve respect and kindness and what happens to them follows on into adulthood. The kid did not seem like a bad kid just a spirited kid as many are his age and i feel what the mother did how she reacted was wrong not that he didn't deserve some kind of discipline.

... and that was the end of the overall disturbance.

As wrong as some of that might have been, the mother certainly did let the child know he cannot get away with treating his sister like that even in public where her correction can be seen by all.

Define 'laying into the child physically.'

Thats true to an extent but in my country you don't handle it like that kids are treated with understanding and compassion generally and so if we see things like this it is upsetting. We believe in private non physical admonishment and clear consequences as I said what she did was cause a greater scene and more upset for everyone.

I understand and I certainly do not disagree with anything you have said. I am simply looking at the fact the child is learning he cannot treat his sister as he did ... and that is good.

He's learning that his mother's love for him and continuing to care for him is contingent on how he treats his sister, and that is bad. I think that what she said was worse than smacking him or yanking him away roughly or whatever she did that was physical. He's 7 (-ish, by the OP's guess). He can't possibly be expected to rationalize that his mom didn't really mean it when she said she hated him and he wasn't going to live with her anymore. This would be exceptionally disturbing for him and is pretty unlikely to lead to future good behaviour. I can see why the OP and others witnessing it were disturbed.

How do you know that? And in fact, and while you *could* be correct there, the best any of us can really do here is to speculate a bit ... and yet we definitely *can* see a specific change -- action stopped -- in the child's behaviour in relation to his sister, and I am willing to bet his mother will *never* let him get away with any such mistreatment.


We are dealing with some cultural issues here ...


I do not know where all of this took place and/or what culture is dominant where, but we definitely do have a variety of cultures represented right here in this forum and I doubt any of us is an expert in understanding the culture and mindset from within which this isolated incident we have observed has actually come.


I can just as easily say the child might be shocked (and maybe even feel a bit insulted) if he heard you (or anyone else) say that. I did not grow up within that kind of dynamic, and I am not saying it is a good one. However, I do know people who talk like that amongst themselves without ever really feeling any more threatened or harmed or violated than I did whenever my mother would threaten me with possibly being banned from the cookie jar for a day or two.

Context, context, context.

I thought the mother was pretty bad for how she handled it. Two wrongs don't make it right and it's her job to teach her child how to behave. Behaving just like her child is going to show him it's okay to act that way. She isn't teaching him anything. I once saw a mother pull her kid by his ear because he was messing with a shopping cart with his sibling and it freaked me out. Instead of pulling him by his arm, she grabbed his ear instead. This was back in 1997 and mom told me I should keep quiet about it or the mother could do it to me too.

I suspect we all share that opinion, yet the child *is* learning to not treat his sister badly and we do *not* know he is being damaged psychologically.

No we don't but IMO all he is actually learning is how to be violent and obnoxious he isn't learning not to treat his sister that way taking away something special to him (for example a week of his favourite tv show) would have but not how she acted. As others have said two wrongs don't make a right and she is the grown up and he the kid. Also what the kid did wasn't deliberate it was really play fighting gone too far and yes punishing and explaining what he did wrong was fair not how she did the poor kid clearly felt insecure already at 7 .

Ah, now break that down just a little more. He is learning to *not* be violent against his sister, and the *only* objection anyone one of us has here is the particular *manner* by which he is being taught to not do that. To say, to suggest or to fear the child will now grow up "violent and obnoxious" because of how his mother taught him to not mis-treat his sister is only highly speculative ... and it is also highly questionable where all of this has happened within a *seeming* "violent and obnoxious" culture or dynamic that apparently does *not* permit their women (or at least this child's sister) to be mis-treated.

I hope noone misunderstands here: I am not in any way defending the mother's actions. I am only suggesting more of us learn to think beyond our own limited emotional evaluations of things.


That phrase is not even applicable here.


... and he has again been reminded to not treat his sister as he did.


You were there, so you might know the child had not really done anything wrong. Is that your report?


That sounds like more speculation. Do you have any actual evidence along that line? His action toward his sister and his retort against his mother would seem to me to indicate otherwise.

I certainly do realize what happened in that dentist's-office waiting room was very disturbing for you, and I am not saying the mother might not need to do differently with her son. I am simply suggesting we learn to own our own feelings and not project them into/onto others until/unless we know we are absolutely correct.

It is just as speculative to assume that he is learning not to mistreat his sister. Obviously that's the lesson his mother intends. But just because his mother intends that doesn't mean it's going to work out the way she plans. I admit it is speculation on my part that he is psychologicaly damaged by her words. Maybe in his culture that's normal and the kids don't take that content seriously. But it's just as speculative on your part (and of course the mother's part) to assume that just because she intends for him to learn to be non-violent with his sister that this is what will actully happen. She stopped the action at that particular moment. But true learning means that he doesn't keep repeating the action or escalating it in the future. Learning is a process and I realize that "once and done" isn't how it works with kids. But just because a mother is using a particular type of discipline to teach a particular lesson doesn't mean it's going to work.

Acknowledged, yet we do have the evidence of his actions ending and not being re-tried in the immediate time frame, and we can see that evidence within an overall context where it least appears the intolerance will be upheld for as long as at least his mother is nearby and aware ... and from that, we can at least hope he eventually learns that lesson and even grows past talking trash to his own mother ...

edit: ... and this just struck me: Maybe, and only a *big* maybe his mother is actually allowing herself to be a temporary object of his anger as a way to help protect (or show protection for) her daughter, his sister, without bear-gripping him.

Last edited by leejosepho on 29 Oct 2010, 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well, I grew up with slaps and my older brothers too. Nowadays, children have to be treat gentle because: there are others ways to deal with this, we are not a savage population, children learn so it is not entirely their faults... I think slaps or spankings doing by parents on their children is not a reprehensible violence, is just a way to learn things. Like when you fall, you can be hurt, but you learn to be more careful.
But, of course, this kind of behavior has to be controlled and not too often. In that case, maybe the boy is always mean to his sister and do not understand that he can't do that.

I guess every culture deals with things differently but from what I saw and how I felt I feel it was wrong. Parents here are given lessons on parenting, are taught no violence of any kind (including spanking), no raising voices or losing control. But clear firm guidelines, taking away privileges, timeouts and treating kids with the same respect as adults. The are taught by psychologists the long-term possible damage of spankings etc. That is how I agree with it and I feel it helps society in the long run but I am aware others feel differently and yes what I saw was very wrong and no the kid wasn't hurting his sister it was play fighting he was bored.

I do not support hitting a child but that was the only way my parents got me to stop hurting other children durring my violent meltdowns. Even at a young age I was unruley, rebelious and prone to violent meltdowns. I was mad a lot due to putting up with crap at school and took it out on everyone. I did not care if I hurt anyone because I have a high pain tolerence and thought everyone else could take the pain like I could. I also was a lot smarter then a good number of peers and could argue with adults as well as another adult helping me to talk my way out of trouble. My parents were really worried I was going to really hurt someone or my younger brother durring a melt down so they were quick to spank me. I began hitting walls or trees instead of hitting people then later on I started to walk out of the situation before I got too aggravatted. If I ever had a child I would never hit the child I was spanked a lot but still caused trouble I just learned how not to get caught but it did teach me hitting people out of anger was wrong which caused me to stop doing it. At least until the 10th grade of highschool but that is a different story.