validity of ADHD

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Well, I went to your links and checked them out.
Here's one quote from your Dr Baughman...


I was married to a Pediatrician for 14 1/2 yrs.
I have known other doctors for longer than that.
Now, I will agree that drug companies spend money on wooing doctors to use their particular products.
But... I can also assure you that the vast majority of physicians I know personally do not 'sell' themselves like this.
My wife NEVER received $13,000.00 per year from any drug company in any form whatsoever!
In fact, she is one of many doctors who are sick of the junk drug companies hand out to buy favors.
She never took a trip paid for by a drug company.

This Dr. Baughman is a liar based upon his statement above.
He has over-generalized and highly exaggerated this claim.
I will agree that there are some doctors who have been 'bought out' by certain companies and not all of them drug companies.
But it is not as wide-spread as Dr. Baughman suggests.

Personally, I do not like the term ADD/HD, but I use it to help other people understand how my brain works and why I do things so differently from them.
My issues with memory, understanding time, maintaining focus, etc. are REAL!
But I do not see them as a DEFICIT.
It is only because society will not allow me equal opportunity to be myself that I am deemed 'different' and seen as having a 'deficit'.

Same thing with AS. If we were to change how society accomodates everyone, then we wouldn't have AS or ADD/HD, etc.
I have said before that I believe the DSM is a poor manual for understanding and dealing with individuals.
But, this does not mean that what is being described by the term "ADD/HD" is not real for people like me.
And YES... I do believe it is organic.. it is part of my brain make up and NOT some scheme devised by the drug companies and mental health professionals just to put me and others on drugs.

It is a condition of the brain that is real.
What your argument seems to be mostly against is the medicating of individuals because of the way our brains work.

And ADD/HD IS as bonified a medical disorder as Asperger's Syndrome is, which by your profile you claim to be diagnosed with.

How were you determined to have Asperger's Syndrome Braveheartlion?
What makes your condition more real than mine?
I am interested in seeing your explanation of this, if you would be so kind to offer up.

First link you suggested I read was talking about brain physiology. Most of these tests are done AFTER people have been exposed to stimulants used to treat this "disorder". Meth and Amphetamines do change brain physiology.

Second link is about SUGGESTED dopamine genes. UNPROVEN! This is still being studied! Are you even reading these links you're giving me? Because you are proving my point for me!

Third link - the same thing! They start out with a hypothesis, testing 15 male subjects with the supposed disorder, and at the end of the test they find "possible differing morphologic substrates of response to stimulant medication." A "possible" response? Btw, are you saying that you agree with the use of stimulant medication? Obviously you just gave me a link touting the "possible" benefits of stimulant medication but then you backtrack and proudly state that you're not on medication? What are you trying to say?

I'm not going to waste my time with the next link, as it seems you are just googling ADHD links and posting them. Waste of my time.

For having ADHD you are awfully concentrated on proving your point. Everyone has problems with attention and hyperactivity at times. Do I have an agenda, as you ask? No. I would love for someone to prove to me that ADHD is real. This is a discussion forum. We disagree, obviously, and it's a free country in which we can do so without reprocussions.

They averaged it out, and your wife is a pediatrician, not a physician. Are you saying that doctors are not being bought out? You're saying this is all a lie, because your physician friends aren't telling you about how they are accepting gifts and cash from pharmaceutical companies? Do you think they would brag or even talk about this? Are you saying the author of this particular article is making all this up?

Naw, don't think so. He's averaged out the numbers. As you've said, your wife doesn't like handing out meds like candy. But there are a lot of physicians who are accepting these offers from drug companies. You can't deny that fraud and deception is happening on a massive scale. And if you supposedly have ADHD and think that there's nothing wrong with what drug companies are pushing, why aren't you also on Ritalin?


You have problems with concentration. There are lots of natural things you can do to help with that. I don't think theres any disorder behind it though.


lol we disagree on this one, definately!


I don't believe pills are the answer no, and I don't believe there's any such thing as ADD/HD

My life experiences are too personal to put it on the line here for you to attack, sorry. Hey, you answered my post awfully fast, with a lot of great points and explanations. Pretty good for someone who has ADD/HD. Does it come and go when you want it to or what.............I thought you had problems concentrating?

Restless leg syndrome, a made up disorder?

Do people get restless? Yes! Is it a syndrome? Ummmmmmm - are you serious!?

Those links were not random... they are from what I see as reputable sources.
I was trying to show you that ADD/HD is a condition which the medical community is trying to understand.
Yes, I did read them, and no, I am not proving your point for you.



I do agree that medcation can help some people.
I did not backtrack at all. I merely mentioned that I am not currently taking medication for my ADD/HD. The comment was done without any degree of pride as you suggest... it was just a fact that I mentioned.
I also said that there were other people who seemed to be doing better with their ADD/HD than I because meds were helping them out.


Again, if you look at the links I provided, they are all National Institute of Health related. Not random google links as you suggest.


Not sure what you mean by this. Care to explain? If you mean that I seem to be able to focus on this particular thread, then you miss a whole lot of what I am doing between posting here, and you misunderstand ADD/HD as well.


That's an easy generalization to make but it really means nothing. You could not possibly know if 'everyone' has problems with attention and hyperactivity at times.
I actually have never heard everyone I know personally, say they have the same 'problems' I have with attention and hyperactivity.



Yes, we are having a discussion in this forum... I have no problem with that.

So far, the only 'evidence' you have provided to back up this thread you created was the list of symptoms for ADD/HD, and the links you provided which offer no proof to substantiate your claims.

The link to Mike Adams' website and his interview with Dr. Baughman is not any more proof than what has been presented here.
Both of these men have books and other things to sell on their websites (I visited Dr. Baughman's website also).
Just as Dr. Baughman and Mike Adams cry foul about the drug companies profiting off people, they seem to be poised to profit off anyone buying into their diatribe.
Should we discount their viewpoints because of this?

well, it appears I have the symptoms, and it is not something that everybody has.

all of those links proved my point that ADHD is an unproven disorder, I don't believe anyone NEEDS to be on amphetamines

There are lots of people regularly getting high off of that stuff and loving it, of course they will defend their precious amphetamines to the very end
The point is you gave me these links that if you understood you would not have posted


Not sure what you mean by this. Care to explain? If you mean that I seem to be able to focus on this particular thread, then you miss a whole lot of what I am doing between posting here, and you misunderstand ADD/HD as well.

You can't be serious?!?!?! Perhaps you haven't heard of anyone else making such a big deal out of it?

what claims are these? That ADHD is an unproven disorder? I have to prove that something is not real? Thats like saying I have to prove gremlins are not real! If someone proves to me gremlins are real, then I'll believe, but until I see concrete evidence, I will not believe. I don't take the path of least resistance when it comes to the health of me and my children, I don't take labels lightly either, as once you have one the emotional and psychological ramifications often lend themselves to you leaning towards presenting the symptoms of the disorder or sickness even more than if you don't have a label.

Last edited by braveheartlion on 30 Dec 2007, 5:38 am, edited 2 times in total.

I have little toes. Really, I do - they're really petite, and not everyone has them! Do I have a little toe disorder now?

Yes, they are making up their exaggerated claims up. Read below... I do say that I believe there are some physicians who do give in to the sales tactics of the drug companies.
And yes, I do believe my friends who are physicians when they say they are not being bought out by the pharmaceutical companies... not every doctor is a liar Braveheartlion.

Umm I have to tell you... a Pediatrician IS a physician.
Pediatrics is a 'specialization' in the medical field just like Internal Medicine is, Neurology is, Surgery is.....






He states specifically that every physician in this country, ON AVERAGE, gets $13,000.00.
He is stating that EVERY physician is on the payrole of drug companies.
This is false. Statements like this are lies pure and simple.
You don't have to believe it, but like I said, I know doctors who are quite defiant against accepting bribes and gifts from drug companies and they still prescribe medicine to their patients.
I know a few doctors who practice or turn their patients to alternative medicine such as accupuncture, Chiropractic medicine, etc.

Here's some more from the website you gave a link to:

That's really reaching. I think they should have solid numbers before making these sorts of statements on the internet supposedly as experts.


She's my former wife btw.
Actually, I would not make such a claim as "fraud and deception is happening on a massive scale.", without some proof.
You should probably re-word that to, "I personally believe that fraud and deception is..."., to be more accurate.
Again, if you read my posts, you will see that I do agree that there are some doctors on the take.


I never said there was nothing wrong with taking drugs.
Even though you haven't asked my opinion on this yet, I will give you my answer.
Having worked in the medical field since 1976, I have learned that any chemical intervention we take with our bodies can have harmful side effects... this includes homeopathic therapies.
The key here is education. Knowing what it is your are taking, what it is supposed to do, what it might do, how much is too much, etc., these are important no matter what type of medicine your are a patient of.
Personally, I did not find that the drugs I was prescribed were of significant value to me.
I chose to stop taking them and work on my ADD/HD from a different angle.
I do take stimulants such as caffeine, which I feel helps me out enough to warrant drinking coffee etc.
There may be a day when I go back and try the drugs again.
I can tell you from personal experience that 'speed' does not have the same effect on me as it does other people I have known.
I am talking about illegal speed in pill form from the 70's and 80's.
While everyone else had their 'fun' with it, I never felt those effects and wondered why.
ADD/HD provided me the answer.


Hey that's good! We agree on something! I'm happy!





I was not asking for your life experiences... just how you were diagnosed.
I went through interviews and a battery of tests/exams, for my diagnosis.

You seem to not understand what ADD/HD is.
While I appear to be intently focused on this thread, I have actually been on other websites, posted in other areas of WP, been listening to music, thinking about how late it is and trying to remember what else I have to eat in the house.
None of this is necessarily ADD/HD type stuff, but your comments come across to me as saying that if I can concentrate for 1/2 hr on something then I don't have ADD/HD.

You should really read up on it to gain a better idea of how ADD/HD impacts someone's life... like mine.

And no... it does not 'come and go' when I want it to.
If that were the case... my life would have been much easier.

btw, your last comments do come off as condescending to me.
I hope that is not the case since I am trying to treat you with as much respect as I would wish for myself.

I consider my concentration to be more than AS alone. I have always had problems concentrating. I am having trouble writing this post. It has taken me 10 minutes to get this far. I do not think that this is because I am thick, or idle, and it definately has nothing to do with drugs - I do not take any. It is a problem that I have had for a long time, and was never picked up in school because they just put me in lower classes and believed I was good at some subjects and terrible at others. Not true, I can focus on something that interests me long enough, but if something is not to my liking, then some outside stimulation will come into play.

I just get the feeling that, because you do not have the actual condition, you feel it can not exist. In this modern age, it is far easier to accept differences than it is to stand up and voice an opinion. You come across as a better character, and less, well bigoted, to be honest. Until I accepted that I was different for reasons other than being nuts, I never liked to be around people like myself, or those worse off, even. Now I am willing to meet anyone, because none of us are perfect, and no one is more right than any other just because they say so.

By your definition, I can say that because I have never had cancer, then all those people who do have it are just pretending to be really ill, and want the excrutiating therapy that comes with it.

Instead of denying the possibility, I feel it would be easier for you to accept that it is real. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but when someone tells me that what I know to be true is nonsense thanks to some rather unfounded facts, I have a need to speak out against that opinion.

I posted some of this on another thread Braveheartlion.
I will expand on this list and you can tell me what my problem is, and what I should do about it.
You can even provide me with links to websites you feel will help me.

Here's the list...

this is what I wrote on the other thread:

To add to it...

If I get up from this table and head to the living room next door to get something I thought of here... by the time I reach the living room door (about a 15 step walk), I probably have forgotten what I was going in there for.
I just did this actually, and I got lucky because I saw the item and remembered that was what I wanted.
Many other times I do not remember... in just that short a time.

I can hyper-focus on things to the point that I exclude everything else going on around me, or things I need to be doing, or appointments I need to be at, etc.
Having ADD/HD does not mean I'm never able to stick to one thing... it's when I do stick to one thing that I forget even very important things... like going to the bathroom... I think I'm going to get up and go, then my mind slips back into what I'm doing, until I get that 'feeling' again and I'll really go this time right after I finish typing this one word... then minutes later
I realize I still haven't gone..etc...
At work people constantly remind me that I said I was going to _______, but I'm still running around doing other things.
This includes going to the bathroom, going on break, going to lunch, going to another department for something, and going home after I'm clocked out.

I'm impulsive. I do things sometimes without thinking... serious things that get me into trouble sometimes. Luckily I haven't done anything illegal for many years because of this, but when it happens, it's not good usually.

I keep a constant scan on the world around me. I tend to not stay focused on any one thing for very long (other than the moments I hyperfocus which are not that frequent).
In a way, this is one of those positive things... because like MONK on t.v., I tend to notice the very fine details that are out-of-place.
This has come in handy many times when other people haven't noticed something important, that I have noticed.
The problem comes up during times like cooking... I tend to walk away from things that don't require constant attention and even then I'll usually take a moment to turn away and think of something else that will, "only take a second to fix".
The result is having the smoke alarms going off every time I cook unless I remember to take them down during that time.

My ADD/HD affects my macroworld as well as my microworld...
At school, I may stay behind in one class to discuss something with the professor that I could wait and do in his/her office if I thought of it, but while we're talking, I'm forgetting that I'm supposed to be at my next class.
I have trouble reading and retaining what I've just read no matter how many times I have read it in a row.
If the lecture isn't visually and auraly stimulating enough, I wind up glancing around the room memorizing all the little defects in the walls and ceilings as well as the figures in the paneling or wall texturing (I can tell you all about the walls in my classes from last semester... even the ceiling in one room, but I couldn't tell you much about the lectures).
Consequently, I have to work really hard at listening and gaining the main points of the lecture, or cramming the night before a test.
Tests... I cannot sit and take a test like other people in school. I have seen them all my school years... answering question after question, pausing to think of the answer, erasing their marks or words and rewriting/marking the test...
I sit down with my leg bouncing as usual, waiting for the teacher to hand out the test forms or booklets, and when I get mine I blaze along fast as I can.
If I linger too long on the questions, my mind goes blank... I mean really blank to the point I cannot remember what it is I'm being tested for sometimes.
So I hurry along and am usually the first one done... sometimes by several minutes.
This is no brag.... I am just relating my actions.
I usually pass my tests.
Towards the end of the semester, I am doing well until the final project. Either I'm redoing the whole thing or I'm not very far on it because I just can't get myself to focus on it. I try, but I draw a blank.
I've tried going to the learning centers at the various shools I have attended and using those nifty little 'time-saving techniques', 'study guides', et.al.
This semester was the most successful in my life, I feel.
I finally finished two classes along with the final projects.
I didn't make the projects exactly what I wanted, but I was able to convince myself to finish them and get my passing grades... B's, with an A in p.e.

When I am tested for intelligence, I come out with some pretty high marks... my problem is just trying to make all my ideas and answers in my head come out the same so I can do the work correctly.

Work... this is one of the most happiest parts of my life.
My current job is my longest at 5 yrs. I have had 40 jobs since the age of 18, in a variety of areas.
Work is the one place where I have the fewest distractions.
I have a job... I know what I am required to do and how to do it (most of the time... I tend to forget some things that I been doing for the past 5 years even!).
I will be in the same building for at least 8 hrs and I do not have to worry about any other aspect of my life... which is a problem when I leave work... I have TOO many things to think about.
I show up at least a couple of minutes late just about every time.
If I am scheduled for a day I have not routinely worked, they will most likely be calling me at home asking if I forgot that I was supposed to be at work... a half hour ago? This was worse before I got my current regular schedule.
I have co-workers around me who have been kind enough to re-direct me when I am getting off task.
I work hard and when I hyperfocus, I can really get something done well.
I don't worry about breaktimes or lunch because I usually forget them being so busy doing other stuff.
I tend to move from task-to-task much quicker than some of my co-workers because short tasks are my specialty.
When I travel from one side of the lab to the other, I often forget what I was doing or where I was heading, but since it's a small place and I don't have too many different sorts of things to concentrate on... I usually remember what it was faster than when I'm at home.
I'm kind, attentive and patient with patients and everyone likes that, although sometimes I can wind up spending too much time with one patient just talking to them.
I have a habit of not putting people on hold... I just set the phone down on the counter without thinking, then sometimes I forget I was talking to someone on the phone.
In the emergency room during a CODE BLUE or other intense emergency, I can hyperfocus really well.
I keep a scan going on of the whole scene and since I have years of experience dealing with medical emergencies, I know pretty much what everyone is supposed to do in these instances so I keep track of them in my head, sometimes helping out by noticing something amiss... this is while I am getting blood from the patient or doing CPR or something else.

I'm gonna stop here.

Basically, I do have trouble focusing in the ways most people around me seem to be able to do.
I have more trouble remembering things that other people seem to be able to remember.
I have more social ineptness because I'm trying to split my attention between two or more people at a time, or between a person and anything else that catches my attention.
I have trouble doing the same tasks as most people around me... in the manner they do them... or the way I am told to do them. Mostly because I can't stay focused in the same manner as those folks.
I can hyperfocus at times but it's not always a good thing.
I wind up being negligent to my own self because I forget to do things... buy food, go to the bathroom rather than put it off, pay bills....
I frustrate those who are close to me and those who I work with.
I struggle through school even though I am supposedly at least as smart as most students on campus.

I have what is called ADD/HD, although I do not have a 'deficit' of attention.. I pay attention to EVERYTHING!

Braveheartlion, this is a serious issue for me. I live it. I have been this way all my life.
I would rather be able to do things like other people... in today's society, I have an almost impossible chance of really fitting in.
How I present myself to others in everyday settings is just a cover to help mask who/what I really am underneath.
When those 'deficits' show up, people notice. And they show up quite often.
This affects my life in rather serious ways... these things I have described are not just 'inconveniences'... they are impediments to my living a normal life in this world.
Perhaps in an indigenous society years ago, I would have a place and be respected for my abilities instead of being brow-beaten for my 'disabilities'.
I would have been a hunter rather than a farmer.
I believe the same applies to anyone with the label, 'AS'.
We have brains that operate differently than modern society wishes to allow.
We must change ourselves in order to be accepted as an equal in society today.
Otherwise, we have to fight for special considerations/laws in order to get people to treat us respectfully.

You do not have to believe my symptoms are real or that I do not have free will to control them.
You can decry any sort of modern medicine I may choose to apply to my life in order to live in today's world.
You have your freedom to speak your mind.

I just wish you would open up your mind a bit further and realize how complex our brains are,
and how real this 'ADD/HD' is to me and others ...just like your Asperger's Syndrome is to you.

Yikes! I always thought that was just guy behavior!

You did get a hit with hunter. My brain is perfect for prospecting. I can spend a month alone looking at rocks. I walk a lot. No people, miles off any trail, just me, a mountain of loose rock, bears, mountain lions, rattle snakes, and if I do not come back, no one will be looking for me. I like it.

All human brains fit on a range, mine does run better on coffee, but I get the same climbing a cliff.

I have adapted to fit in the workplace, but it is not me, just something to do in the winter to raise a grub stake.

I try to keep both parties happy, the world, with their townie ways, and self, that likes to be alone, but doing something.

What does the DSM have to say about people who rebuild motorcycles in the kitchen?

I am a loner, but motorcycles and meth do attract people that fit the ADHD model.

I may have guy stuff, ADBMW, AS, or HFA, and not fit in everywhere, but the rest do not fit in my camp. Like our interest in working in town, people very different from me have asked about the rocks on their ranch. I am an alien, but the ranch is real, and I will take out my colored pencils, turn out a geologic map of the area, and a report on what is there, what might be there, and what to look for.

Out on the edge we are all just folks. Little old ladies have stopped in the middle of no where to ask if I was alright, when my bike was parked along a rock cut I was exploring. No one leaves any one out there to die.

I had a van with a bed, and the locals said, keep it full of gas, leave the keys in it. It was 54 miles to a hospital, and I owned an ambulance. The social accomidation becomes more apparent when there are less people.

What I like about Alex's little town is it is open to AS/HFA/LFA/ADD/ADHD/ the maybes, self Dxed, friends, family, teachers, employers, and the curious.

I do not think those are the final scores, I do think we are all in the same game, and are just folks.

That sounds suspiciously like me
Seriously, a lot of what you put there relates to me. I had so much dirty laundry, I did six loads. I can categorise it and all that, but I have a feeling that there is still some in the machine. I cannot leave the house and go to the shops without a list of everything I have to do, the shops to go into, bills to pay. I have a meal routine to help me remember which day of the week it is. Yet I can remember an event that happened six months ago, second by second. I get the feeling that I should have some sort of list tattooed to me, but what list I know not. It would have to go the entire length of my body, because there is so much stuff to keep track of. I went to see my friend at the bar she sometimes works at, and sat wondering why i could not see her. She told me two days previous that she was not working that day - she never works that particular day.

This is not some sort of poisoning or side-effect of something. It is real and a part of me. For people all over the world to have the same problems is one thing, but to suggest that it is because we have all been affected by the same things is a far stretch.

Damn troll.

AS is no more "proven" than ADD/ADHD. Yet you claim in your profile to have been dx'd AS. Do you not realize the contradiction that destroys all your creditablity right there? Or is this just a childish game of "My dx is more valid than yours!" You seem to think that having AS is a status symbol which gives you the authority to talk about things you know nothing about. And besides, how ******* ridiculous and self important is it to be offended by someone else's dx!

What's more, it's clear - if one wades through your verbose BS - that THAT is the entire reason you dismiss ADHD - because you're offended by it!! ! You can't even show enough respect and integrity to properly reply to the counterarguments given to you here, which suggests you simply have a highly subjective basis for your views. For an Aspie, you're not very mindful, logical, scientific or detached, are you? I honestly suspect you're just a raging narcissistic who's lying to the forum about having AS because you want an audience to pontificate to. And you can be offended at that 'til your petty heart's content.


But on the off-chance you're not the big fat fraud I think you are, I'll contribute a little to the discussion. Allow me try to illustrrate your grave error:

The whole RLS thing should not be about whether it's real symdrome. It is. It has been for ages. It's just doctors never saw much point in dx'ing it, because what could they do? It was one of those things - not unlike ADHD in days past - that before doctors just told people they had to deal with on their own. It wasn't until it was discovered an already present drug helps RLS that that pharm company got the bright idea to advertise like crazy, make people aware of this condition, and create a new market for this already produced drugs. So yes, the advertising and promotion for drugs for RLS is indeed about selling the drugs, but the dx itself is not.

Same is true of ADD/ADHD. Yes, pharm companies make a lot of money off of ADHD drugs, and have massive marketing strategies to keep that market up and running. But the dx doesn't exist for the drugs. The dx exists because people actually suffer from this specific complex of symptoms. There is a difference. That you're too self-absorbed and cynical to notice that difference doesn't change that reality.

Last comment: I feel very sorry for the people who feel they need to validate their own experiences with ADD/ADHD because of your ignorance. What's more, you've further insulted them by being disingenuous about actually discussing this issue with them, because you cannot handle your position being challenged. Did you think you could start a poll like this and just bully anyone who didn't agree with you? This is NOT what WP is about. People should not feel they have to justify being "atypical" in any way here, and there certainly should not be any suggestion of a dx-based pecking order, especially one according to subjectivity and arrogance. You owe these people an apology.

hmmm, I don't think so, maybe ignorance disorder, and I just made that up