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corroonb
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10 Aug 2008, 8:22 pm

claire333 wrote:
patternist wrote:
No, I worry about the next emerging infection.


Yeah. Nature has a way of taking care of itself. I've always said that is what the ebola virus is for.


The ebola virus kills far too quickly to be suitable for a pandemic. The infected host usually dies before that many people can be infected.



tomboy4good
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12 Aug 2008, 10:44 am

Yes I think about over population too! Unfortunately, as another poster has also admitted, I have contributed by bringing 2 more children into this world. Luckily, I stopped there! I can't imagine having a whole slew of kids...don't have the patience or the resources.

However, I have seen a program (I think it may have been on PBS' Nova several years ago) on a lab that let its rats multiply until the cage was overfilled with rats. Like our own society, it was chaotic, & there were many troubles observed by the lab assistants. Rats attacked & killed each other, stole young from other female rats, & showed other signs of stress related behaviors. The population eventually regulated itself, & the rats went back to normal behaviors once there were fewer animals. I feel like I am also part of some super large lab experiment. We've had quite a few population reducers come into play since the early 20th century...pandemic influenzas, polio, AIDS, not to mention murders & wars, etc. I can hardly wait to see what else is in store. Humans are far more destructive than rats, & not just towards other humans unfortunately.


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corroonb
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12 Aug 2008, 10:51 am

tomboy4good wrote:
Yes I think about over population too! Unfortunately, as another poster has also admitted, I have contributed by bringing 2 more children into this world. Luckily, I stopped there! I can't imagine having a whole slew of kids...don't have the patience or the resources.

However, I have seen a program (I think it may have been on PBS' Nova several years ago) on a lab that let its rats multiply until the cage was overfilled with rats. Like our own society, it was chaotic, & there were many troubles observed by the lab assistants. Rats attacked & killed each other, stole young from other female rats, & showed other signs of stress related behaviors. The population eventually regulated itself, & the rats went back to normal behaviors once there were fewer animals. I feel like I am also part of some super large lab experiment. We've had quite a few population reducers come into play since the early 20th century...pandemic influenzas, polio, AIDS, not to mention murders & wars, etc. I can hardly wait to see what else is in store. Humans are far more destructive than rats, & not just towards other humans unfortunately.


Very interesting perspective. Thanks for the post.



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12 Aug 2008, 10:58 am

Overpopulation has been a fear of mine since I was a kid, my thought is that something will happen sooner or rather to slow it down. One of my theories is that it will kind of be like Roman empire thing, in that I mean that something will happen to the supposed greatest society. Though at the moment look pretty safe but who know what could happen, what might happen if the 'barbariens' take over a major city, when I said that it was in reference to the barbarians attacking athens. This is something that has hapend through out history, if it is like the roman empire there might be a dip in the economy, but also there should be no underestimate of enemy troops. The thing is that good things can come out of change.


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simplyhere
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12 Aug 2008, 4:55 pm

corroonb wrote:
I think human overpopulation is one of the most difficult challenges facing the planet. Countries like China and India are producing more and more people who will need food, electricity, cars. All these will increase fossil fuel use and the conflict the need for oil and gas appears to be fueling. The US, Europe, Japan also have much responsibility.

It seems everyone is ignoring this problem in favour of global warming which is simply a side effect of the massive increase in the population of humans over the last few centuries.

What is your opinion about this?


Over-population is a myth. . .just like Germans being the superior race was a myth. And below are some links that you can read over.

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/3046/overpop.htm

New Jersey also has a much higher population density than China, but only the most hardened would advocate forced sterilizations and forced abortions to save New Jersey from collapse. Having been in Switzerland, New Jersey, and China, I can say that the quality of life (environmental quality, income, life expectancy, and health care) is vastly superior in the first two, where the population density is higher. What's the difference? The political and economic systems must be taken into account. If a system hinders rather than rewards human productivity and impedes efficient utilization of resources through central planning, then the problem may not be due to numbers of people.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/Overpop.shtml

The Japanese island of Oshima is giving us an inkling of what the future may be like. Children are so rare that an old people's home set up dummies of a little boy and a pig-tailed little girl waving on the front porch "to soften the atmosphere of the place", according to the manager.

http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/ ... lation.htm

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=19076



corroonb
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12 Aug 2008, 5:14 pm

simplyhere wrote:
corroonb wrote:
I think human overpopulation is one of the most difficult challenges facing the planet. Countries like China and India are producing more and more people who will need food, electricity, cars. All these will increase fossil fuel use and the conflict the need for oil and gas appears to be fueling. The US, Europe, Japan also have much responsibility.

It seems everyone is ignoring this problem in favour of global warming which is simply a side effect of the massive increase in the population of humans over the last few centuries.

What is your opinion about this?


Over-population is a myth. . .just like Germans being the superior race was a myth. And below are some links that you can read over.

http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/3046/overpop.htm

New Jersey also has a much higher population density than China, but only the most hardened would advocate forced sterilizations and forced abortions to save New Jersey from collapse. Having been in Switzerland, New Jersey, and China, I can say that the quality of life (environmental quality, income, life expectancy, and health care) is vastly superior in the first two, where the population density is higher. What's the difference? The political and economic systems must be taken into account. If a system hinders rather than rewards human productivity and impedes efficient utilization of resources through central planning, then the problem may not be due to numbers of people.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/Overpop.shtml

The Japanese island of Oshima is giving us an inkling of what the future may be like. Children are so rare that an old people's home set up dummies of a little boy and a pig-tailed little girl waving on the front porch "to soften the atmosphere of the place", according to the manager.

http://www.enterstageright.com/archive/ ... lation.htm

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/artic ... E_ID=19076


Two websites and an statement that overpopulation is a "myth" is not an argument.

There may be underpopulation in Japan but this is largely due to immigration policies as much as anything else.

Who mentioned forced abortions and forced sterilisations?

Abortions and sterilisations are both options for people and should be options in any civilised country in the world.

Are you seriously suggesting that countries like India, China, Bangladesh, Brazil and Indonesia are underpopulated? Why are they so poor compared to Western countries then?

Why have fossil fuel emissions risen so drastically if the world is not overpopulated?

How could six billion large mammals not be considered overpopulation?

I would appreciate any cogent argument against my idea of overpopulation but regurgitating arguments from websites is not a cogent argument.



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12 Aug 2008, 5:15 pm

claire333 wrote:
patternist wrote:
No, I worry about the next emerging infection.


Yeah. Nature has a way of taking care of itself. I've always said that is what the ebola virus is for.


Ebola kills too quickly. You need something which takes more time to kill so it will have time to spread. Also, it needs to be virtually undetectable during the first phases, so it will spread undetected, and only kills in its final phase.



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12 Aug 2008, 5:18 pm

corroonb wrote:
Why are they so poor compared to Western countries then?


Most of the people I have met in the United States are poor. Though they make more than a lot of people throughout the world, you have to consider the delta between their income and the cost of living.



corroonb
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12 Aug 2008, 5:20 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
corroonb wrote:
Why are they so poor compared to Western countries then?


Most of the people I have met in the United States are poor. Though they make more than a lot of people throughout the world, you have to consider the delta between their income and the cost of living.


Most of the people in Ireland are reasonably wealthy. Is the wealth in the US distributed very unequally?



iamnotaparakeet
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12 Aug 2008, 5:24 pm

corroonb wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
corroonb wrote:
Why are they so poor compared to Western countries then?


Most of the people I have met in the United States are poor. Though they make more than a lot of people throughout the world, you have to consider the delta between their income and the cost of living.


Most of the people in Ireland are reasonably wealthy. Is the wealth in the US distributed very unequally?


At least from what I've seen. There are people who live from paycheck to paycheck working 2 or 3 jobs and barely able to pay for all the bills. And there are other people who work one job and are able to support a family.

Are you from Ireland then? My mom's family is originally from Limerick. I'm a descendant through her of Michael William Shanahan.



corroonb
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12 Aug 2008, 5:27 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
corroonb wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
corroonb wrote:
Why are they so poor compared to Western countries then?


Most of the people I have met in the United States are poor. Though they make more than a lot of people throughout the world, you have to consider the delta between their income and the cost of living.


Most of the people in Ireland are reasonably wealthy. Is the wealth in the US distributed very unequally?


At least from what I've seen. There are people who live from paycheck to paycheck working 2 or 3 jobs and barely able to pay for all the bills. And there are other people who work one job and are able to support a family.

Are you from Ireland then? My mom's family is originally from Limerick. I'm a descendant through her of Michael William Shanahan.


Yes, I'm Irish. My older brother's girlfriend is from Limerick.

Ireland is quite a wealthy country (and underpopulated) because we are the European headquarters for Microsoft, Intel, HP, Paypal, Ebay and lots of other American companies.



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12 Aug 2008, 5:27 pm

Doesn't this belong in the politics forum?

Anyway, I think overpopulation is a big issue because big families are just no longer possible without risking your kids to end up in trouble. Unemployment for example: how are you going to fund your 6 kids' education to guarantee they won't end up unemployed and in serious issues with money (and even that education guarantees nothing) ?
And that is less worrying than the hunger issues in other parts of the world.

I support government-ruled birth control. It may sound drastic, but I think it is more humane than to see children being born without a guarantee to a good future. Let's first take care of children already on our planet and assure them a good life, only afterwards we need to produce even more kids. 2 kids per family seems a reasonable maximum allowed to me, those who want more can go for adoption and thereby save the life of a child in need.

Also, countries without population issues could have more immigrants to get the work done, while countries with overpopulation would solve their unemployment by seeing people emigrate to take care of jobs in countries where the local population is too small in numbers to get the work done.


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12 Aug 2008, 5:28 pm

corroonb wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
corroonb wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
corroonb wrote:
Why are they so poor compared to Western countries then?


Most of the people I have met in the United States are poor. Though they make more than a lot of people throughout the world, you have to consider the delta between their income and the cost of living.


Most of the people in Ireland are reasonably wealthy. Is the wealth in the US distributed very unequally?


At least from what I've seen. There are people who live from paycheck to paycheck working 2 or 3 jobs and barely able to pay for all the bills. And there are other people who work one job and are able to support a family.

Are you from Ireland then? My mom's family is originally from Limerick. I'm a descendant through her of Michael William Shanahan.


Yes, I'm Irish. My older brother's girlfriend is from Limerick.

Ireland is quite a wealthy country (and underpopulated) because we are the European headquarters for Microsoft, Intel, HP, Paypal, Ebay and lots of other American companies.


Please tell me that Wal-Mart/Asda has not infected your shores!



corroonb
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12 Aug 2008, 5:30 pm

We don't have Wall-Mart or Asda. We do have Irish and British supermarkets and most American fast-food chains.



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12 Aug 2008, 5:35 pm

corroonb wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
corroonb wrote:
Why are they so poor compared to Western countries then?


Most of the people I have met in the United States are poor. Though they make more than a lot of people throughout the world, you have to consider the delta between their income and the cost of living.


Most of the people in Ireland are reasonably wealthy. Is the wealth in the US distributed very unequally?

1) Even adjusted for purchasing power parity, the usual income for someone in China is beyond poverty compared to what the US would consider "poor". GDP (PPP) of China per capita is below $3K. Even in extremely poor cities American cities the per capita income is still more than three times that. To compare the US to China is absurd.
2) America is wealthy. I think the GDP per capita of Ireland may have surpassed the US recently, but the US is still pretty close to the top. The relatively sparsely populated mid-west area tends to be fairly low income as the country goes, but overall it's a wealthy country.
3) Overpopulation can't be blamed for why India and China are poor. They're both experiencing large amounts of growth. They're developing economies still; while behind the curve, China especially is getting much more wealthy.


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12 Aug 2008, 5:47 pm

Quote:
The UN has appealed for much greater investment in family planning to help reduce poverty and slow down population growth.

Marking World Population Day, UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-Moon said the benefits of family planning remained out of reach of many people, especially the poor.

The UN estimates that the world's population will grow by more than a third by the year 2050 - from 6.7bn now to 9.2bn - a growth rate it says is unsustainable.
Advertisement

More than 140 countries worldwide will observe World Population Day today by emphasising the importance of family planning for the well-being of families, communities and nations, and by underlining the need to further integrate such services into national development plans.

The theme of World Population Day 2008 is 'Family Planning: It's a Right; Let's Make it Real.'

It provides a chance to raise awareness of the benefits of family planning, including its role in enhancing maternal health, gender equality and poverty reduction.

World leaders have proclaimed that individuals have a basic human right to determine freely and responsibly the number and spacing of their children, yet modern contraception remains out of reach for hundreds of millions of women and men.

World Population Day activities range from rallies, performances and exhibitions to sports competitions, seminars and cultural events.

In his World Population Day message, Ban Ki-moon said 'Studies show that family planning has immediate benefits for the lives and health of mothers and their infants.'

'Let us take action to reduce maternal mortality and achieve universal access to reproductive health by 2015,' said Mr Ban.

In a separate message, Thoraya Ahmed Obaid, Executive Director of UNFPA, the UN's Fund for Population Activities, said family planning 'is essential to women's empowerment and gender equality. When a woman can plan her family, she can plan the rest of her life.'


http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0711/population.html


Quote:
PARIS: The human population is living far beyond its means and inflicting damage on the environment that could pass points of no return, according to a major report issued Thursday by the United Nations.

Climate change, the rate of extinction of species and the challenge of feeding a growing population are among the threats putting humanity at risk, the UN Environment Program said in its fourth Global Environmental Outlook since 1997.

"The human population is now so large that the amount of resources needed to sustain it exceeds what is available at current consumption patterns," Achim Steiner, the executive director of the program, said in a telephone interview. Efficient use of resources and reducing waste now are "among the greatest challenges at the beginning of 21st century," he said.

The program described its report, which is prepared by 388 experts and scientists, as the broadest and deepest of those that the UN issues on the environment and called it "the final wake-up call to the international community."

Over the past two decades the world population has increased by almost 34 percent to 6.7 billion from 5 billion; similarly, the financial wealth of the planet has soared by about a third. But the land available to each person on earth had shrunk by 2005 to 2.02 hectares, or 5 acres, from 7.91 hectares in 1900 and was projected to drop to 1.63 hectares for each person by 2050, the report said.

The result of that population growth combined with unsustainable consumption has resulted in an increasingly stressed planet where natural disasters and environmental degradation endanger millions of humans, as well as plant and animal species, the report said.

Steiner said that demand for resources was close to 22 hectares per person, a figure that would have to be cut to between 15 and 16 hectares per person to stay within existing, sustainable limits.

Persistent problems identified by the report include a rapid rise of so-called dead zones, where marine life no longer can be supported because of depletion of oxygen caused by pollutants like fertilizers. Also included is the resurgence of diseases linked with environmental degradation.

The report is being published two decades after a commission headed by the former Norwegian prime minister Gro Harlem Brundtland warned that the survival of humanity was at stake from unsustainable development.

Steiner said many of the problems identified by the Brundtland Commission were even more acute because not enough had been done to stop environmental degradation as flows of goods, services, people, technologies and workers had expanded, even to isolated populations.

He did, however, identify some reasons for hope that pointed toward better environmental stewardship.

He said West European governments had taken effective measures to reduce air pollutants, and he praised efforts in parts of Brazil to roll back deforestation in the Amazon. He said an international treaty to tackle the hole in the earth's ozone layer had led to the phasing-out of release of 95 percent of ozone-damaging chemicals.

Steiner said more intelligent management of scarce resources including fishing grounds, land and water was needed to sustain a still larger global population, which he said was expected to stabilize at between 8 billion and 10 billion people.

"Life would be easier if we didn't have the kind of population growth rates that we have at the moment," Steiner said. "But to force people to stop having children would be a simplistic answer. The more realistic, ethical and practical issue is to accelerate human well-being and make more rational use of the resources we have on this planet."

Steiner said environmental tipping points, at which degradation can lead to abrupt, accelerating or potentially irreversible changes, would increasingly occur in locations like particular rivers or forests, where populations would lack the ability to repair damage because the gravity of a problem would be far beyond their physical or economic means.

Looking ahead, Steiner said parts of Africa could reach environmental tipping points if changing rainfall patterns stemming from climate change turned semi-arid zones into arid zones, and made agriculture that sustained millions of people much harder.

Steiner said other tipping points triggered by climate change could occur in areas like India and China if Himalayan glaciers shrank so much that they no longer supplied adequate amounts of water to populations in those countries.

He also warned of a global collapse of all species being fished by 2050, if fishing around the world continued at its present pace.

The report said 250 percent more fish are being caught than the oceans can produce in a sustainable manner, and that the number of fish stocks classed as collapsed had roughly doubled to 30 percent globally over the past 20 years.




http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/10/25/ ... nviron.php


These are both news websites and they do not have a political agenda.