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auntblabby
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09 Oct 2013, 5:45 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Which is irritating as hell because you cant tell if a New Yorker is telling you he is going to a soiree, or going to releave himself, when he announces he is going to "a potty"( pahyty? Party? wif?).

that deterioration in intelligibility is a dysfunctional language evolution, IMHO.



LogicalMolly
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09 Oct 2013, 5:52 pm

Beauty_pact wrote:

...I have always been great with pronunciation, though... regardless of the language..... sorry, I do not mean to brag. -.-


*Off-topic observation*

I do not think that stating one's strengths is necessarily boasting, any more than stating one's weaknesses necessarily indicates a lack of self-esteem. However, I have noticed that neurotypicals tend to disagree.

When I say thoughtfully: "I'm very good at ABC" or "I'm very bad at XYZ" neurotypical people always think I'm boasting about ABC, and suffering from a lack of self-esteem / fishing for compliments about XYZ. In fact, my statements are just analytical observations about myself.

Perhaps this also happens to you. If you are used to NTs telling you that you are "boasting" for stating the things you are good at, that might be why you've just apologised for having said you are good at something. This is very sad. Why can't it be OK to say in a matter-of-fact way: "I'm good at this?"

*Slight hijack over. Resume discussion on RP English.*



octobertiger
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09 Oct 2013, 5:55 pm

That definitely happens to me.



alwaystomorrow
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10 Oct 2013, 7:09 am

naturalplastic wrote:
In RP you sound 'uppah clahss' and drop your r's.

While in other British dialects you ROLL your r's.
Depending on your definition of "rolled", this is either entirely false or just partly untrue, but either way, it's an oversimplification.

Rolled r's in the way of an alveolar trill ( /r/ in phonetics) as in Spanish, Italian, or many Slavonic or Nordic European languages are only used in Scots and some Scottish and Welsh accents.

Most English speakers pronounce the letter "r" as an alveolar approximant.
In the UK, it's usually straight-up /ɹ/ , whereas many US speakers prefer a pronunciation that is slightly retroflex, i.e. the tip of the tongue is curled towards the hard palate when pronouncing it. The International Phonetic Alphabet uses this symbol to describe the sound: /ɻ/ -- which looks like /ɹ/ with a little hook or curl, which I think is a great description. ;) This retroflex alveolar approximant is also used by many Irish and Welsh speakers of English and people from the West Country, i.e. the south-west of England.

That's the quality of 'r' sounds.

As for the actual use of sounds (are 'r's pronounced or not?) -- accents are ever-changing, but regionally speaking, the accents of western and south-western England, the North, and the Liverpool area as well as those of Scotland and most of Ireland were rhotic ( = pronounced all their 'r's) at some point in the past fifty years or so. The rest of the UK has non-rhotic accents.

RP is non-rhotic, so speakers of RP pronounce 'r' only before a pronounced vowel.

[Edited to fix typos]



Last edited by alwaystomorrow on 11 Oct 2013, 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

MisterSpock
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10 Oct 2013, 7:40 am

I can speak in at least 10 UK accents, possibly 15, one of which is RP (though I would place my global accent count closer to 35). It's ridiculously easy - just listen and repeat. Of course practice helps, but only if you don't immediately take to it. Or if not practice, exposure to.

As a note to people discussing the pronunciation of the letter 'r', in the more regional accents, the 'r' is omitted or replaced with a schwa at the end of a word. In fact, just compare the word 'better' in RP and non-RP - you get the first part the same, but then come a glottal stop and a schwa for the non-RP.



Mummy_of_Peanut
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10 Oct 2013, 8:10 am

My daughter is having trouble understanding some of the news reader types on TV. A prime example is this insistence in pronouncing 'year' in a way that sounds like a Californian hippy from the 60s saying, 'Yeah, man, cool'. She keeps saying, 'Mummy, what's a yeah' (in a slow drawl). It's so annoying. You want to shout at the TV, 'Talk properly, please'.

A person from my necks of the woods, who speaks standard English, can come across as highly educated and very well spoken. I don't speak RP, as I always have a Scottish accent and pronounce all of my 'r's, but I speak in a way that most people would understand. I'm from Glasgow and many people across the globe need subtitles to understand the dialect here, but my standard English is as clear as it gets.


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auntblabby
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10 Oct 2013, 1:51 pm

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
My daughter is having trouble understanding some of the news reader types on TV. A prime example is this insistence in pronouncing 'year' in a way that sounds like a Californian hippy from the 60s saying, 'Yeah, man, cool'. She keeps saying, 'Mummy, what's a yeah' (in a slow drawl). It's so annoying. You want to shout at the TV, 'Talk properly, please'. A person from my necks of the woods, who speaks standard English, can come across as highly educated and very well spoken. I don't speak RP, as I always have a Scottish accent and pronounce all of my 'r's, but I speak in a way that most people would understand. I'm from Glasgow and many people across the globe need subtitles to understand the dialect here, but my standard English is as clear as it gets.

do you roll your Rs?



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10 Oct 2013, 2:51 pm

The Glaswegian accent has its own quirks. Take this word:

"Better."

An RP speaker would pronounce it:

"Betah,"

whereas a Glaswegian would probably pronounce it:

"Beh-[insert gutteral throat noise here]-er."

In other words, the RP accent is guilty of omitting most Rs and pronouncing the Ts, whereas many Scottish accents are guilty of substituting Ts for gutteral noises in the throat and pronouncing the Rs. :lol:

There is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to accents. All are unique, and all are equally interesting. An accent that may be annoying or hard to follow when the listener is not used to hearing it may be an accent that sounds perfectly "normal" to a native listener. Hence mummy_of_peanut's comment that she wants the RP newsreaders to speak "properly." The RP accent is generally considered to be the epitome of "proper," but judging by your comment, your definition of "proper" is the way you talk yourself. Personally, I am fascinated by different accents, and enjoy observing how they differ. I think that exposure to a wide range of accents is desirable, since it enables you to converse easily with a wide range of people.

An interesting thing I've noticed about Glaswegians is that they tend to construct the present perfect tense incorrectly, using the preterite as though it were a past participle. Here are a few example sentences which use the present perfect tense correctly:

"I've been to that place before."

"I've never seen that person before."

"I've done my homework."


That is how an RP speaker would say those things. However, a Glaswegian would likely say:

"I've went to that place before."

"I've never saw that person before."

I've did my homework."


To anyone who knows anything about grammar, that makes you wince. It's clearly wrong according to the rules of English grammar, but most Glaswegians do not observe English grammar. They use Glaswegian grammar instead.

Please note, mummy_of_peanut, I am not trying to imply that you talk like that, nor am I implying that there would be anything wrong with talking like that if you did. It's just an observation, since you brought up the interesting subject of Glaswegian.

As someone who grew up on the West Coast of Scotland, I can testify that most people in Ayrshire use Glaswegian grammar. :lol: As an English person residing in those areas, unless you want to be wincing every few seconds while listening to somebody use the present perfect as though it were the preterite, you just have to get used to it - and even learn to relish using Glaswegian grammar yourself!

A minority of them are aware that it's wrong to conjugate the present perfect tense that way. Those in the know will speak that way when interacting with others, but will switch to speaking and writing correctly when talking to an English person or writing a formal document. However, the vast majority of them do not even know that the above sentences are grammatically incorrect. To them, constructing that particular verb tense in that way is not deemed to be incorrect; it's just the way they talk in their particular accent.



auntblabby
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10 Oct 2013, 2:58 pm

^^^
at the risk of some political incorrectness, could it be said that many Scotland people are using at least a bit of a Scottish equivalent of ebonics?



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10 Oct 2013, 3:03 pm

I talk like a Glaswegian but with a Manchester accent.


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10 Oct 2013, 4:02 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
can people in England do as eliza Doolittle did [in "Pygmalion"] and learn step by step to ape RP, with or without the guidance of a henry Higgins-type?


You'd think.

I took a fun little dialects class taught by an actress here in the USA.

There are zillions of regional british accents, but for basic american showbiz purposes you have to know two kinds: 'upperclass', and 'cockney'.

"Upperclass" is what the brits themselves call "RP". Cockney is the blue collar dialect of London's East End.

Both are easy for an american to do with minimal coaching. So I dont see why the brits themselves cant learn to do RP as well as I can. I can 'do' David Attenboro and sound "veddy British inDEED".



Lol!


Most american attempts at RP are awful. Really dreadful. Sorry to burst your bubble.

Also, I can do an RP or public school accent. I have a fairly neutral educated english accent and it is not like RP.



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10 Oct 2013, 4:14 pm

In fact most attempts at any british accents by north americans tend to be painful to listen to by native speakers of the respective accents, or by other UK residents who know what the accents should sound like.



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10 Oct 2013, 5:13 pm

LogicalMolly wrote:
The Glaswegian accent has its own quirks. Take this word:

"Better."

An RP speaker would pronounce it:

"Betah,"

whereas a Glaswegian would probably pronounce it:

"Beh-[insert gutteral throat noise here]-er."

In other words, the RP accent is guilty of omitting most Rs and pronouncing the Ts, whereas many Scottish accents are guilty of substituting Ts for gutteral noises in the throat and pronouncing the Rs. :lol:

There is no "right" or "wrong" when it comes to accents. All are unique, and all are equally interesting. An accent that may be annoying or hard to follow when the listener is not used to hearing it may be an accent that sounds perfectly "normal" to a native listener. Hence mummy_of_peanut's comment that she wants the RP newsreaders to speak "properly." The RP accent is generally considered to be the epitome of "proper," but judging by your comment, your definition of "proper" is the way you talk yourself. Personally, I am fascinated by different accents, and enjoy observing how they differ. I think that exposure to a wide range of accents is desirable, since it enables you to converse easily with a wide range of people.

An interesting thing I've noticed about Glaswegians is that they tend to construct the present perfect tense incorrectly, using the preterite as though it were a past participle. Here are a few example sentences which use the present perfect tense correctly:

"I've been to that place before."

"I've never seen that person before."

"I've done my homework."


That is how an RP speaker would say those things. However, a Glaswegian would likely say:

"I've went to that place before."

"I've never saw that person before."

I've did my homework."


To anyone who knows anything about grammar, that makes you wince. It's clearly wrong according to the rules of English grammar, but most Glaswegians do not observe English grammar. They use Glaswegian grammar instead.

Please note, mummy_of_peanut, I am not trying to imply that you talk like that, nor am I implying that there would be anything wrong with talking like that if you did. It's just an observation, since you brought up the interesting subject of Glaswegian.

As someone who grew up on the West Coast of Scotland, I can testify that most people in Ayrshire use Glaswegian grammar. :lol: As an English person residing in those areas, unless you want to be wincing every few seconds while listening to somebody use the present perfect as though it were the preterite, you just have to get used to it - and even learn to relish using Glaswegian grammar yourself!

A minority of them are aware that it's wrong to conjugate the present perfect tense that way. Those in the know will speak that way when interacting with others, but will switch to speaking and writing correctly when talking to an English person or writing a formal document. However, the vast majority of them do not even know that the above sentences are grammatically incorrect. To them, constructing that particular verb tense in that way is not deemed to be incorrect; it's just the way they talk in their particular accent.


All of the above is pretty much spot on ! I'm from the Glaswegian-speaking area and whether our incorrect use of grammar has originated from a lack of knowledge of English or as an act of defiance (We'll speak the way we want to speak! Freedom !),it's been passed down through the generations to the extent that the quirks of grammar combined with variations in vocabulary have made it practically a separate branch of English.
Personally I cringe when I hear even well-educated people say things like 'I seen him yesterday' or 'It's went wrong',but in their case
it's probably more to do with simply using what is their local dialect. Examples of the the differences in vocabulary include the
terms 'messages = groceries", outwith = outside of a boundary,uplift = collect (a package etc),poke = a paper bag,piece = a sandwich.
The grammar and vocabulary are used interchangeably with standard English depending on the circumstances and who is being spoken
to.
On the other side of the coin from the well-educated 'I'm only speaking my local dialect' people,there are a minority of what we call 'Neds' (Non-Educated Delinquents) who not only lack the knowledge of proper English but also seem to think it's a badge of honour to speak 'na lazy nasal twang,'nat know ?


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LogicalMolly
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10 Oct 2013, 5:39 pm

Ah, the messages! The infamous messages!

:cheers:



Mummy_of_Peanut
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11 Oct 2013, 3:43 am

pluto wrote:
[The grammar and vocabulary are used interchangeably with standard English depending on the circumstances and who is being spoken to.
On the other side of the coin from the well-educated 'I'm only speaking my local dialect' people,there are a minority of what we call 'Neds' (Non-Educated Delinquents) who not only lack the knowledge of proper English but also seem to think it's a badge of honour to speak 'na lazy nasal twang,'nat know ?
Usually, when I'm speaking with people from here, I will speak in a sort of mixture of standard English, mixed with the odd Glaswegian and a bit of extra Scots words. My Grandpa only spoke in Scots, like Rabbie Burns, never standard English and passed a lot on to my Mum and she onto me, but most of it has been lost. We'll say 'ahint ye', meaning 'behind you', onion is 'ingan', etc. I'm a bit more posh (I'm not actually posh) and educated sounding than normal, for someone brought up in a council scheme on the outskirts of Glasgow, but my early years were in private education, where speaking 'properly' was drummed into us. That's a little insulting, as rich dialects have been lost because of that attitude. Anyway, I don't naturally speak in Glaswegian to the same extent as my peers (and I'm not talking about NEDs :lol: , as that's another level altogether, nat know).


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Mummy_of_Peanut
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11 Oct 2013, 3:53 am

auntblabby wrote:
do you roll your Rs?
Not to the extent that an Italian would or people from the highlands and islands, but it's usually well sounded. If you watch The Late Late Show, I don't sound too different from Craig Ferguson. He's got the odd American sounding word, but his accent appears to be relatively unchanged since he the days when he was on TV here.


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