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naturalplastic
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03 Jun 2019, 8:42 pm

Don't know why I deleted it. Decided to go back to it later. But glad that you got some of it.

Dave Mathews (of the band of that name) is a White guy born in Africa. I worked with Black guy named "Mohammed" who grew up in the former Brit colony nation of Sierra Leone in Africa, but lived long in the UK before living here in the Washington DC area (being a British Empire person he is in demand as a soccer couch for teens in the US- so he now makes enough doing that to quit our company). Both he and Dave Mathews could be called "African Americans". But neither is an "African American" as the term is usually applied: to homegrown native born Black American descendants of pre Civil War slaves- like Kanye West or Louis Armstrong.



TheRevengeofTW1ZTY
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03 Jun 2019, 9:07 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Don't know why I deleted it. Decided to go back to it later. But glad that you got some of it.

Dave Mathews (of the band of that name) is a White guy born in Africa. I worked with Black guy named "Mohammed" who grew up in the former Brit colony nation of Sierra Leone in Africa, but lived long in the UK before living here in the Washington DC area (being a British Empire person he is in demand as a soccer couch for teens in the US- so he now makes enough doing that to quit our company). Both he and Dave Mathews could be called "African Americans". But neither is an "African American" as the term is usually applied: to homegrown native born Black American descendants of pre Civil War slaves- like Kanye West or Louis Armstrong.


I'm also good friends with a white guy from South Africa. In fact he's a moderator here. :)

South Africa actually has a lot of white people living in the area who are descended from European colonists. He's taught me a lot about the country. :)


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naturalplastic
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03 Jun 2019, 10:26 pm

TheRevengeofTW1ZTY wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Don't know why I deleted it. Decided to go back to it later. But glad that you got some of it.

Dave Mathews (of the band of that name) is a White guy born in Africa. I worked with Black guy named "Mohammed" who grew up in the former Brit colony nation of Sierra Leone in Africa, but lived long in the UK before living here in the Washington DC area (being a British Empire person he is in demand as a soccer couch for teens in the US- so he now makes enough doing that to quit our company). Both he and Dave Mathews could be called "African Americans". But neither is an "African American" as the term is usually applied: to homegrown native born Black American descendants of pre Civil War slaves- like Kanye West or Louis Armstrong.


I'm also good friends with a white guy from South Africa. In fact he's a moderator here. :)

South Africa actually has a lot of white people living in the area who are descended from European colonists. He's taught me a lot about the country. :)

That's basic about south Africa.

The large (but still minority) White population ruled for centuries until the fall of Apartheid (about the same time that the Berlin Wall and Communism fell).
The extreme southern part of Africa goes into the southern hemisphere temperate zone. So White Europeans are able to survive there- and not get the tropical diseases of old.

First the Dutch settled, then the British empire took over the colony. There were even "tribal wars" between the Whites (British army against the Dutch Afrikaneers) and both fought the native blacks. The Zulus became like Napoleon, and conquered their neighbors and fought everybody- black and white to rule southern africa. And you have the Kung Bushmen who are another race distinct from Blacks. And you other immigrant groups to South Africa, like Asian Indians. The young Gandhi worker as a lawyer in South Africa at the turn of the 19/20th century.

Quite a place south Africa.

The Afrikaneers have their own language but it evolved from Dutch. But they've been separated from the Netherlands for four centuries. A young lady on WP who lives in the Netherlands was pen pals with me for a while. She told me she met a guy from South Africa at a party who was an Afrikaneer. They spoke to each other in their respective tongues and could (more or less) understand each other.

The English of South Africa is distinctive too. But superficially sounds a lot like Aussie or NZ dialect.



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04 Jun 2019, 9:32 am

Naturally, there's no "A" for "Asexual". :roll:

And I don't get the Q at the end. Isn't "queer" a slur towards homosexual people? (of course, it's all right for *them* to say it) And doesn't it mean the same as gay or lesbian?



naturalplastic
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04 Jun 2019, 9:44 am

yeah. the q is included by some to mean "queer" meaning those "who are not sure what they are, or are in between".

But originally "queer" was an epither for male homosexual.

Some gays embrace it the way Black rappers call themselves the N word I guess.



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04 Jun 2019, 9:46 am

lostonearth35 wrote:
Naturally, there's no "A" for "Asexual". And I don't get the Q at the end. Isn't "queer" a slur towards homosexual people? (of course, it's all right for *them* to say it) And doesn't it mean the same as gay or lesbian?
I'm not sure, but I think that "queer" in this context might be a catch-all term for people who don't fall into one of the other four categories (LGBT) -- cross-dressers, furries, et cetera.



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04 Jun 2019, 9:53 am

The English language is a fluid language.

"Queer" meant "weird/odd" when I was a kid. It wasn't used in the context of "gayness" at all. It also meant "gay."

Nowadays, apparently, the meaning has changed. It now means, like Natureplastic said, "unsure of where one is sexually," or "somewhere in the middle between gay and straight."



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04 Jun 2019, 5:42 pm

lostonearth35 wrote:
Naturally, there's no "A" for "Asexual". :roll:


I've seen variants which include it. Usually it is either considered to be under the plus (LGBT+) or at the end (LGBTQA+) , however LGBT is the most common one used. Asexual is considered to be a part of the community. It would fall under GSM (Gender and Sexual Minorities) or GSRM (Gender, Sexual and Romantic Minorities) as well.


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04 Jun 2019, 5:45 pm

There is an "asexuality spectrum."

I actually believe very few people are truly "asexual"---in the sense that they never fantasize about sex with any gender whosoever.

I cannot call someone "asexual" if the person is able to get sexually aroused---yet is turned off to the idea of having sex with someone. There's a place on the "asexuality spectrum" for that person, though.



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04 Jun 2019, 7:56 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
The English language is a fluid language.

"Queer" meant "weird/odd" when I was a kid. It wasn't used in the context of "gayness" at all. ."

."


Obviously "queer" originally meant "odd", or "out of place" or "strange".

But we date fom about the same era, and I disagee with your second point. "Queer" was very definitely used as an epithet for "effeminate male", or "homosexual male", in our circa 1970 childhood/adolescence. If anything "queer" (in that sense) was already considered a bit quaint and old fashioned then because it had been used in my parents' day back in the thirties. Less gentile slang like "homo", and "fa***t", were starting to come into vogue by our day in the Sixties and Seventies.

Homosexuals began calling themselves "gay" in the Seventies. That became the non derogatory term straights and gays would call them from the Seventies on (even though gay originally just meant "happy/carefree"). Then towards the end of the 20th Century some gays embraced "queer" (kinda like Black rappers call themselves the N word).

But apparently NOW in 2019 "queer" has been repurposed yet again to mean "not straight", but "not sure what you are". Who knows?



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04 Jun 2019, 11:06 pm

I said that “queer” also meant “homosexual.”

“Homo” and “queer” were the dominant terms for people who were known to be gay. “fa***t” was used to mean “homosexual”—but it was also frequently used to mean any guy who can be bullied—even if known to be straight,

I first heard “gay” for homosexual about 1974. People used to use gay to mean “carefree,” like you said.



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05 Jun 2019, 4:37 am

I get the idea it was created by those who it doesn't apply to.



naturalplastic
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05 Jun 2019, 5:01 am

Damned!

I meant "genteel" ( restrained gentlemanly) , not "gentile" (non Jewish). Its too late to edit it now. :lol:



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05 Jun 2019, 5:13 am

Queer had duel meanings growing up in the 60s and 70s. Weird or homosexual. Either way it was a pejorative. As a homophobic insult it was on par with fa***t or homo.

In my dad’s high school yearbook was the phrase “Our hearts were young and gay”. It did not mean homosexual but happy and carefree. The inscription became somewhat of a running family joke. I remember Gay in the 1970s was a descriptor used to describe a homosexual male, later it was broadened to a general term for non straight people, then by the 2000s became an insult for a person who was not necessarily LGBTQ but weak or lame. While not specifically used to insult a homosexual man the insult had homophobic overtones.

Gay - Wikipedia

Quote:
Bringing Up Baby (1938) was the first film to use the word gay in apparent reference to homosexuality. In a scene in which Cary Grant's character's clothes have been sent to the cleaners, he is forced to wear a woman's feather-trimmed robe. When another character asks about his robe, he responds, "Because I just went gay all of a sudden!" Since this was a mainstream film at a time, when the use of the word to refer to cross-dressing (and, by extension, homosexuality) would still be unfamiliar to most film-goers, the line can also be interpreted to mean, "I just decided to do something frivolous."

In 1950, the earliest reference found to date for the word gay as a self-described name for homosexuals came from Alfred A. Gross, executive secretary for the George W. Henry Foundation, who said in the June 1950 issue of SIR magazine: "I have yet to meet a happy homosexual. They have a way of describing themselves as gay but the term is a misnomer. Those who are habitues of the bars frequented by others of the kind, are about the saddest people I’ve ever seen."

By the mid-20th century, gay was well established in reference to hedonistic and uninhibited lifestyles and its antonym straight, which had long had connotations of seriousness, respectability, and conventionality, had now acquired specific connotations of heterosexuality.In the case of gay, other connotations of frivolousness and showiness in dress ("gay apparel") led to association with camp and effeminacy. This association no doubt helped the gradual narrowing in scope of the term towards its current dominant meaning, which was at first confined to subcultures. Gay was the preferred term since other terms, such as queer, were felt to be derogatory. Homosexual is perceived as excessively clinical, since the sexual orientation now commonly referred to as "homosexuality" was at that time a mental illness diagnosis in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM).

he 1960s marked the transition in the predominant meaning of the word gay from that of "carefree" to the current "homosexual". In the British comedy-drama film Light Up the Sky! (1960), directed by Lewis Gilbert, about the antics of a British Army searchlight squad during World War II, there is a scene in the mess hut where the character played by Benny Hill proposes an after-dinner toast. He begins, "I'd like to propose..." at which point a fellow diner, played by Sidney Tafler, interjects "Who to?", suggesting a proposal of marriage. The Benny Hill character responds, "Not to you for start, you ain't my type". He then adds in mock doubt, "Oh, I don't know, you're rather gay on the quiet."

By 1963, a new sense of the word gay was known well enough to be used by Albert Ellis in his book The Intelligent Woman's Guide to Man-Hunting. Similarly, Hubert Selby, Jr. in his 1964 novel Last Exit to Brooklyn, could write that a character "took pride in being a homosexual by feeling intellectually and esthetically superior to those (especially women) who weren't gay...."Later examples of the original meaning of the word being used in popular culture include the theme song to the 1960–1966 animated TV series The Flintstones, whereby viewers are assured that they will "have a gay old time." Similarly, the 1966 Herman's Hermits song "No Milk Today", which became a Top 10 hit in the UK and a Top 40 hit in the U.S., included the lyric "No milk today, it was not always so; The company was gay, we'd turn night into day."

In June 1967, the headline of the review of the Beatles' Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band album in the British daily newspaper The Times stated, "The Beatles revive hopes of progress in pop music with their gay new LP".Yet in the same year, The Kinks recorded "David Watts". Ostensibly about schoolboy envy, the song also operated as an in-joke, as related in Jon Savage's "The Kinks: The Official Biography", because the song took its name from a homosexual promoter they had encountered who had romantic desires for songwriter Ray Davies' teenage brother; and the lines "he is so gay and fancy free" attest to the ambiguity of the word's meaning at that time, with the second meaning evident only for those in the know. As late as 1970, the first episode of The Mary Tyler Moore Show has the demonstrably straight Mary Richards' downstairs neighbor, Phyllis, breezily declaiming that Mary is, at age 30, still "young and gay."

Starting in the mid-1980s in the United States, a conscious effort was under way, within what was then only called the gay community, to add the term lesbian to the name of all gay organizations that catered to both male and female homosexuals, and to use the terminology of gay and lesbian, or lesbian/gay when referring to that community. So, organizations like the National Gay Task Force became the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force. For many ardent feminist lesbians, it was also important that the L come first, lest an L following a G become another symbol of male dominance over women, although other women prefer the usage gay woman. In the 1990s, this was followed by another equally concerted push to include the terminology specifically pointing out the inclusion of bisexual, transgender, intersex, and other people, reflecting the intra-community debate as to whether these other sexual minorities were part of the same human rights movement. Most news organizations have formally adopted variations of this use, following the example and preference of the organizations, as reflected in their press releases and public communications.

When used with a derisive attitude (e.g., "that was so gay"), the word gay is pejorative. While retaining its other meanings, its use among young people as a general term of disparagement is common. This pejorative usage has its origins in the late 1970s, with the word gaining a pejorative sense by association with the previous meaning: homosexuality was seen as inferior or undesirable. Beginning in the 1980s, and especially in the late 1990s, the usage as a generic insult became common among young people.


Queer - Wikipedia
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By late 19th century, the term was starting to gain a connotation of sexual deviance, referring to feminine men or men who would engage in same-sex relationships. An early recorded usage of the word in this sense was in an 1894 letter by John Sholto Douglas, 9th Marquess of Queensberry.Usage of queer as a derogatory term for effeminate men become prominent in the 20th century. In the early 20th century, many individuals with non-normative sexual or gender identities, including English poet and author Radclyffe Hall, preferred the identity of invert. However, in the early 20th century in the United States, queer was used as a self-identification by certain masculine gay men.

In the mid-20th century, the invert identity lost ground and shifted toward the homophile identity. In the 1960s and 1970s, the homophile identity was displaced by a more radicalized gay identity, which at the time included trans and gender-nonconforming people. During the endonymic shifts from invert to homophile to gay, queer was usually pejoratively applied to men who were believed to engage in receptive or passive anal or oral sex with other men as well as those who exhibited non-normative gender expressions.

Beginning in the late-1980s, the label queer began to be reclaimed from its pejorative use as a neutral or positive self-identifier by LGBT people.An early example of this usage by the LGBT community was by an organisation called Queer Nation, which was formed in March 1990 and circulated an anonymous flier at the New York Gay Pride Parade in June 1990 titled "Queers Read This".The flier included a passage explaining their adoption of the label queer:

“Ah, do we really have to use that word? It's trouble. Every gay person has his or her own take on it. For some it means strange and eccentric and kind of mysterious [...] And for others "queer" conjures up those awful memories of adolescent suffering [...] Well, yes, "gay" is great. It has its place. But when a lot of lesbians and gay men wake up in the morning we feel angry and disgusted, not gay. So we've chosen to call ourselves queer. Using "queer" is a way of reminding us how we are perceived by the rest of the world.“



Johnny Are You Queer? - Wikipedia
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"Johnny Are You Queer?" (also stylized as "Johnny, Are You Queer?") is a 1980s pop song credited to the writing team of Bobby and Larson Paine. The song was originally by Fear, later performed live by the Go-Go's, and eventually recorded by Josie Cotton, who released the song as a single in 1981 and 1982, and as part of her 1982 album Convertible Music. The song was also featured on the Valley Girl soundtrack (1983).

The song was the subject of controversy upon its release. Cotton was accused by multiple conservative groups as promoting homosexuality.


The Queer Story of Johnny and Josie by Josie Cotton
Quote:
I've never told the real story of Johnny Are You Queer before. I've been reluctant to talk about it because to tell you the truth, I don't know what happened. I have my theories but the only thing I'm really sure of is that it all came crashing down in the end. It was fast and furious, thrilling and heartbreaking. I had driven out from Texas in the late 70's to make it as a songwriter. I had my guitar, my demos and big dreams. The horizon reached far ahead. It was a new life. I didn't know yet about the firestorm of controversy and infamy that I was heading towards. Hello, Hollywood. This was going to be a wild ride.

The whole "Johnny Are You Queer" phenomena was much bigger than me but I didn't know it at the time. I was just the singer. It was really more about breaking down barriers, sex and politics, punk rock and corporate America, and prejudice that cut both ways. For the record, let me just say, that it was my supreme honor to be the girl who got to to stick it in the eye of the Establishment and all the small minded morons of the world. They owned the Queer word back then lock, stock and barrel. They kept it in the back of their pick-ups, or in the locker room, to haul out when someone just didn't look right. "You just don't fit in around here, boy" Where I grew up, if a guy looked the slightest bit interesting, he was often called a queer. Even if they didn't say it out loud, there was this look they gave, you could see the pure hate in their eyes. It was chilling. That's how stupid it all was back then, and still is in many ways .

When "Johnny Are You Queer" was first released on Bomp Records in the early 80's, people just couldn't believe what they were hearing. They were actually shocked. Gay guys, straight guys, bi-girls, you name it... they gasped, they laughed uncontrollably, they jumped around. I'm sure the as*holes were laughing too, but they were drowned out now. The queer word had mutated, and it was somehow liberating to hear it being used in this completely new way.

Johnny kind of had something for everybody. Girls could so relate to falling for some beautiful gayboy and I can't tell you how many of those same gayboys wrote to me, telling me over and over again that they had come out of the closet or realized they were gay because of "Johnny Are You Queer?", this so called homo-phobic joke song.

But I digress...I think my problems really began when the religious right decided I was Satan, or to be more specific, Satan's trans-gender spawn thing . There were protests at KROQ , there were counter protests, there were fake protests, and fake counter protests. Everybody had their panties in a knot. I thought it was pretty funny myself but I just couldn't figure out why these religious types would even care. That is until one night I was watching television, skipping through the channels, when I came upon my record cover being held up to the camera. It was on that whack religious network that I would sometimes watch because of my extremely warped sense of humor. A lady evangelist with pink hair sobbing into the camera, begging for money, promising eternity, mascara running down, literally on a golden throne. It looked a lot more like a circle of hell from Dante's inferno than any place Jesus would step foot in. They were playing "Johnny Are You Queer?" at half speed and I remember thinking "How cool, I sound just like Brian Wilson." The guy ranting into the camera was actually the son of the lady evangelist and her leisure-suited evangelist husband who looked like a used car salesman time warped from the 1950's. He said there was no Josie Cotton. I didn't even exist. What a relief !... but I had suspected that for some time. What I hadn't known was that I was actually a gay man trying to convert unsuspecting straight men to my homosexual lifestyle. Wow ! This was a personal best.

By this time, Johnny Are You Queer had become a kind of anthem on the West Coast. I had a large gay following there, my first gig at a gay latino biker bar where I was presented with this enormous gold plated dildo. I loved them and they loved me. It was all good. Strangely, New York City was to be another matter all together. The reaction by the gay community there was unanticipated to say the least. The Advocate was furious with me. "Josie Are You a b***h?" graced the cover of the Village Voice around this time. I vaguely remember them saying something about my voice sounding like a goat. I should have responded to that article but I didn't. I should have said something biting and clever and in their faces like "Somebody's got their kotex on backwards" or more to the point," What don't you don't understand about 'I'm on your side' ?" They had read me so utterly wrong that I was literally speechless. It wasn't until years later, after reading the biography of Robert Mapelthorpe, on a visit to New York ironically, that I realized how much the gay community had been struggling to find themselves during that time. The spectre of Aids had just begun to raise its ugly head in the general population and there was little room for humor or irony in those desperate times. They had rejected their own and if they were going to kick Robert Mapelthorpe to the curb, then I hadn't had a chance in hell. It seemed unreal. I don't think they ever knew they had positioned themselves shoulder to shoulder with my new Christian Broadcast buddies. What a Hallmark moment. How was it these 2 warring factions had come together, in one shining moment of absurd irony, and the world never knew ? But against me? Little me? You might as well have rammed an armadillo up my ass.

"Oh the horror" Apacolypse Now

Josie ( Can I quote myself ?) Cotton, "You've got to be f*****g kidding me" .

How could this song have been so mis-construed by so many disparate factions, like some gigantic pop culture Roreshock test?

As we were recording Convertible Music , the single for Johnny Are You Queer (which Elektra Records had taken over from Bomp) went to number 2 on Canadian radio right under Joan Jett's "I Love Rock and Roll" . It was also in heavy rotation at KROQ and blowing up around the world in dance clubs. And in the US a national panel of radio programmers had given the OK for it be played on AM radio if we replaced the word queer with a 'beep'. This was great news for us but now there was extreme pressure from Elektra ( and ourselves ) to finish the record asap.

Oh and by the way, to finally answer that question once and for all..... he was flamin' .


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kraftiekortie
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05 Jun 2019, 9:42 am

There used to be this stupid song:

Homo we go, Lez be on our way....



naturalplastic
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05 Jun 2019, 1:19 pm

But back to the subject.

LGBT, and even LGBTQ, are fine with me. Lesbians, gays, trans whatever, and queers, are all to some degree between the two genders, and all face some similar issues of discrimination. So I got no problem with lumping them all together in some contexts (like national politics). Makes it easier on us not in those categories to have one basket to toss them all into. But adding an "A" for either asexual, or for "autistic", is going way to far, and doesn't make sense. IMHO.