The man vs bear meme

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^ No, the meme is about the issue of sexual violence against women.

From Wikipedia (my emphasis): A meme is an idea, behavior, or style that spreads by means of imitation from person to person within a culture and often carries symbolic meaning representing a particular phenomenon or theme.

Using a bear as a comparison that for some reason can't be discussed.

If the bear can't be discussed, why isn't the thread locked? I don't see the purpose of having a thread on a meme where the whole concept is comparing men to bears with no actual comparison being allowed. The meme is asking a question and isn't a meme in the traditional sense.

That's a lovely made-up situation you've constructed. It's really cool that you know exactly how many bears are in proximity of any person at any given time in all the woods round the world. It's like a superpower!

On average, there are 39.6 bear attacks per year globally. However, the number of fatal attacks by wild black bears since 1784 is 66, and less than a dozen are non-fatal each year. The majority of encounters end with no physical contact.

In 2022, there were over 1.6 million assaults in the United States where personal weapons, such as hands, fists, or feet, were used. There were a further 149,516 aggravated assaults where handguns were used.

According to the Rape, Abuse & Incest National Network (RAINN), more than 433,000 people in the United States are victims of sexual assault or rape every year, and every 68 seconds another person is assaulted. In 2021, 282,043 women and 42,454 men were victims of rape or sexual assault. In 2022, 442,754 women and 89,053 men were victims.

An estimated 91% of victims of rape & sexual assault are female and 9% male. Nearly 99% of perpetrators are male. 1 This US Dept. of Justice statistic does not report those who do not identify in these gender boxes.

Despite the clown-show of trying to make everything "equal and fair", the reality is, it's neither equal, nor fair. It is overwhelmingly committed by men, and overwhelmingly targets women.

Bears, by comparison, by the numbers, are astronomically safer in a random-chance encounter.

40 bear attacks per year, GLOBALLY - vs half a million sexual assaults per year, in the US alone, mostly committed by men.

"WeLl, mEn GeT sExUaLy AsSaUlTeD, tOo!!1!" - yes - also mostly by other men - and at drastically lower rates than women.

And anyways, as pointed out, the meme isn't literally about bears - its about MEN. Replace "bear" with "shark" or "lion" and the principle still holds the same - and its still about MEN. Making it about actual bears misses the point and serves no purpose except to argue and drag the conversation off-topic.

It's about making a comparison of the nature of men in the woods and bears in the woods. Women are asked if they would prefer to be in the woods with a man or a bear. They interperate the dangers differently with some women picking the man, and others picking the bear.

People have every right to interperate it as they like (that's the whole point of the meme). Some women are worried about the physical danger the bear poses, others about SA.

On this particular thread though, mentioning this seems to be causing yet more trouble. So I'm not even going to respond to anyone anymore. It's a complete waste of time.

Even if we accepted the notion that all people always have the right to their own opinion or interpretation of things (they don't), that means other people get to have opinions and interpretations of you, as well. People can have whatever opinions or interpretations they want - nobody is required to entertain or indulge them.

But thank you for taking the time to explain the meme. I had been confused until you broke it down for me into a distorted version of itself that fits your narrative better. It was very convenient that I didn't have to come to my own conclusions or anything. I know everyone is entitled to their own interpretation, but I didn't have one yet so providing me with yours for me to use expedited things immensely. I don't know why I didn't see it your way sooner!

"I'm not even going to respond!"



More fine examples of the dismissive attitude towards the issue at hand.

It’s so much fun when men mansplain to other men just because the topic is women. Heaven forbid the women have their own say, or some men understand.

Yeah, it’s horrifying having to experience the cold, calculated depravity that some humans engage in and then to have to deal with denial, excuses, victim-blaming, and whatever else their conniving wickedness can think up. Sexual violence is traumatizing for various reasons. It’s not solely about the physical act like some might think, not that I’m making light of that at all. It’s a complex issue and there are a lot of facets to it. Every victim’s experience is different too.

Others are worried about both.

SA is physical danger. It often involves various forms of violence all at once (physical, sexual, emotional, and psychological). I’m not sure what people think, but I might as well mention that rape is not like mildly unpleasant / disappointing sex.

When I first replied here to the original poster's assertion, I agreed that the meme seemed a bit stupid. Later I expanded on that view and said that it's too divisive to be anything but counterproductive. I warned that the thread may therefore go south, but thought I'd give it a chance to prove me wrong. The content did seem to become a little more calm and respectful for a short while, but soon nosedived again into pointless bickering.

One member who has been posting a great deal here has repeatedly demonstrated how not to discuss the problem with men who aren't entirely on your wavelength. Constantly making denigratory comments and rolling eyes at them doesn't win hearts and minds. It simply invites contempt and the suspicion of dishonesty, the exact reverse of what's required of anybody who genuinely wants to promote useful, productive discussion of the subject. It's also useful to answer questions. I'm still waiting for the answer to mine.

It seems to me that this thread is a bad place to discuss the issue that (these days) it's said to be about. But I think going off topic is the least of its problems. The subject is, or was, the bear meme, and the original post invited opinions on whether it was good or bad. My view is that the meme was very likely designed as a tool for trolling. If so, it's succeeded on this very thread. I note the OP hasn't posted again since he created the thread. But I don't completely rule out the possibility that its inventor was trying to do some good, in which case it's failed.

That same member, if we are thinking of the same person, also made solid, well-reasoned arguments and incorporated research into some of his posts. It’s always interesting to me when people comment on delivery rather than content.

While bickering occurred in this thread, a lot of useful and productive comments were made as well, so it’s not been entirely negative. Hopefully, some people will be more aware of how and why some women feel the way that they do after reading the thoughtful comments and posts that appear throughout this discussion because it’s an important conversation to be having.

Ahhhhh gotcha... thank you for the explanation - yet again, it's great to be told what to think instead of thinking for myself. I don't know what I'd do if people didn't tell me what perspective I was supposed to have...

So THATS what's going on! It's all about people not being on the exact same wavelength ~~~ sounds like a great way to oversimplify the issue and make it sound like a matter of "chocco vs vanilla", rather than sexual assault perpetrated by men against women. Just cos some guys are trying to pretend the meme is more like a Buddhist riddle open to a thousand subjective interpretations, doesn't mean it is not still in fact about violence towards women perpetrated by men.

Nobody should have to "win hearts and minds" in order for people to be treated fairly, and not be assaulted - which is already illegal, so hearts and minds are irrelevant, LAWS already took care of it. Someone who has to be won over to the side of basic human decency already seems to miss the point of basic human decency.

It seems we're now moving on from the ad hominem "don't listen to these mean people!" to outright poisoning the well with "don't even listen to anything in this whole thread, nothing to see here!! !"

Also, the meme isn't even that old for it to mean something different (these days) than it did when it was made. Seems like another attempt to claim that the meme means something other than what the meme means. Same goes for the claim that the meme is just meant to be a troll. If I disagree with someone, it's not cos a meme tricked or baited me into it.

I guess in the mind of someone who thinks they can just bro-splain to me what I should in fact be thinking, and expect it to work, could also imagine that a meme could have a similar effect on me - or others. Alas, much as I am not swayed by them and their fan-fiction, I am also not devoid of opinions until a meme blows down the tube to tell me what to think, either.

If you've got a question that you want answered so very badly, maybe try asking it again. To simply complain that your question hasn't been answered, without reiterating the question, is a bit like complaining that your food order hasn't come yet, but not saying what your order was, to be able to find and fulfil it. Or am I supposed to memorize and categorically respond to every single query and statement you make across 10 pages of discussion?

My "wavelength" is the idea that women deserve better than they're getting, given the one-sided nature of the problem at hand. Assault is wrong, and crap behavior is crap. Hearts and minds are all well and dandy, but sometimes it take a bonk on the head to make people act right.

Generating a nationwide discussion of sexual violence against women and the attitudes of men toward the subject is an example of a failure? I has hardly failed! The problem is that men overall have had a very weird reaction, as if everything is always about them. The meme says "Women are afraid of being raped" and most men have responded with "How dare you??! !"

Thanks, I'll post there about tone policing when I get a minute.

A written discussion allows time for people to make their messages less inflammatory so that they might be taken seriously. Nothing wrong with honest expressions of anger and frustration, it’s the frequent ad nauseam use of denigratory remarks, sarcasm, unfounded accusations, putting words into people’s mouths then demolishing the straw man, etc., that's counterproductive. Anger is OK, trying to take anger out on the wrong target isn't.

The failure is shown by that very response (highlighted in bold). Sure, it's being talked about, but it failed to generate an empathic discussion. Quite the reverse.

That’s not a failure of a meme. It’s a pervasive, societal problem. There were plenty of opportunities in this thread for empathetic responses and some members gave some. Others strived to take the thread off-topic by making it about them, how they think they are perceived, and distracting commentary (e.g. discussions about bears and discussions about how this thread is a failure) rather than the central issue: violence towards women. Stuff like that often happens when this topic comes up which makes me suspect that some may have trouble relating to it if it’s not something they’ve experienced. In any event, if you read back through the thread, you will find that there is a fair amount of discussion around the central issue, so I don’t think it’s been a total failure.

There was nothing offensive about the meme. As TP said, it's a societal problem. There is no possible different meme or different manner of framing the discussion that would have or ever has generated a positive, supportive response from most men. That is the problem itself. It's not with the meme. It's just so stupid and off-point to take it personally.

I don't understand why men are so adamant against engaging with the issue of sexual violence against women. Why do most men do this? I don't know. Entitlement, I can only surmise.

Also, if the problem were that most men have responded with "How dare you?" to "I am worried about being the victim of a sexual assault," that is something that the men responding that way have done wrong, not something that the meme has done wrong. Let's not shift the blame yet again, or expect that discussions about women's issues have to coddle men and make sure their pride is not wounded. And as I already said, there is never a manner in which the discussion is allowed to be framed.

^
If the meme had just said "I am worried about being the victim of a sexual assault," I think it might have provoked a better result.