If the universe is infinite, does everything exist?

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iamnotaparakeet
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13 Sep 2009, 8:04 pm

JetLag wrote:
I think that since the second law of thermodynamics states each system left to its own devices tends to go from order to disorder, the universe could not have existed in the past. Or, to put it a different way, since the universe is becoming more and more chaotic, it cannot be eternal.

I think that this means that the universe, just like everything else that is made, had to have a beginning; but I don't think it was from the Big Bang, though, because a big bang is just a big explosion and big explosions destroy things, not create them.

But if the time-space universe had a beginning, then I believe that someone or something must have caused - created or made - it. And so I go along with those who believe that the One who created the universe is God.


Just to let you know, the big bang isn't quite like an explosion. It's suppose to be an expansion of hyperspace where the distance of all things from each other increases rapidly, though supposedly without a center. There's a book and a video called Starlight And Time, which has an explanation of the George Gamov version of the universe (the big bang) and presents the development of the first Creationist cosmology to incorporate the general theory of relativity.



utopia
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15 Sep 2009, 10:32 am

No! Infinite doesn't mean all. There are an infinite amount of numerical values between 0 and 1, but not a single one of them is equal to 6.



ZEGH8578
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15 Sep 2009, 10:59 am

Kenjuudo wrote:
Because the universe basically defines both time and space, it becomes nonsense to apply them outside of the system.

Therefore the concepts of "before Big Bang" and "outside the universe" becomes imaginary and irrelevant.


true and something that people will fanatically refuse to even try to accept...


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iamnotaparakeet
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15 Sep 2009, 11:23 am

ZEGH8578 wrote:
Kenjuudo wrote:
Because the universe basically defines both time and space, it becomes nonsense to apply them outside of the system.

Therefore the concepts of "before Big Bang" and "outside the universe" becomes imaginary and irrelevant.


true and something that people will fanatically refuse to even try to accept...


iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kenjuudo wrote:
Because the universe basically defines both time and space, it becomes nonsense to apply them outside of the system.


While it would be nonsense to apply laws that work within a system to things outside of said system, it is not nonsense to think that there is an outside to the system.


I suppose I'm fanatically refusing to accept this scientific law that "the universe is all there is and nothing more" when I say that it is not nonsense to think there is an outside to the system? Of course, human knowledge is perfect, complete, and whole. There is nothing beyond the material universe, because their is nothing beyond our knowledge. Yep, so fanatic to disagree with human omniscience. Omni scientia est nostri! :roll:



ZEGH8578
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15 Sep 2009, 11:34 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ZEGH8578 wrote:
Kenjuudo wrote:
Because the universe basically defines both time and space, it becomes nonsense to apply them outside of the system.

Therefore the concepts of "before Big Bang" and "outside the universe" becomes imaginary and irrelevant.


true and something that people will fanatically refuse to even try to accept...


iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kenjuudo wrote:
Because the universe basically defines both time and space, it becomes nonsense to apply them outside of the system.


While it would be nonsense to apply laws that work within a system to things outside of said system, it is not nonsense to think that there is an outside to the system.


I suppose I'm fanatically refusing to accept this scientific law that "the universe is all there is and nothing more" when I say that it is not nonsense to think there is an outside to the system? Of course, human knowledge is perfect, complete, and whole. There is nothing beyond the material universe, because their is nothing beyond our knowledge. Yep, so fanatic to disagree with human omniscience. Omni scientia est nostri! :roll:


are you serious?
so when i say something, then its "oh the perfect human knowledge, mock in rhymes" but when you say it, its In My Face.
lets go back to where we had no contact. you bore me.


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15 Sep 2009, 11:58 am

JetLag wrote:
I think that this means that the universe, just like everything else that is made, had to have a beginning; but I don't think it was from the Big Bang, though, because a big bang is just a big explosion and big explosions destroy things, not create them.

Advice: When talking about something scientific, try to know a little bit about what the hell you are talking about. Read this and you might actually learn something.

Quote:
Before beginning the examination of the evidence surrounding current cosmology, it is important to understand what Big Bang Theory (BBT) is and is not. Contrary to the common perception, BBT is not a theory about the origin of the universe. Rather, it describes the development of the universe over time.


Quote:
In most popularized science sources, BBT is often described with something like "The universe came into being due to the explosion of a point in which all matter was concentrated." Not surprisingly, this is probably the standard impression which most people have of the theory. Occasionally, one even hears "In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded."

There are several misconceptions hidden in these statements:

The BBT is not about the origin of the universe. Rather, its primary focus is the development of the universe over time.
BBT does not imply that the universe was ever point-like.
The origin of the universe was not an explosion of matter into already existing space.


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Last edited by Henriksson on 15 Sep 2009, 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

iamnotaparakeet
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15 Sep 2009, 12:08 pm

Yes, the big bang is not an explosion, and the addition of matter and energy created ex nihilo isn't all at once. What is does have though is the expansion of hyperspace in such a manner that the Copernican Principle is upheld. All points moving away from each other equally, so that the observational data that redshifts increase evenly the farther out we look in all directions can be interpreted as being the same view from all points in the universe.



ZEGH8578
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15 Sep 2009, 1:27 pm

Henriksson wrote:
JetLag wrote:
I think that this means that the universe, just like everything else that is made, had to have a beginning; but I don't think it was from the Big Bang, though, because a big bang is just a big explosion and big explosions destroy things, not create them.

Advice: When talking about something scientific, try to know a little bit about what the hell you are talking about. Read this and you might actually learn something.

Quote:
Before beginning the examination of the evidence surrounding current cosmology, it is important to understand what Big Bang Theory (BBT) is and is not. Contrary to the common perception, BBT is not a theory about the origin of the universe. Rather, it describes the development of the universe over time.


Quote:
In most popularized science sources, BBT is often described with something like "The universe came into being due to the explosion of a point in which all matter was concentrated." Not surprisingly, this is probably the standard impression which most people have of the theory. Occasionally, one even hears "In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded."

There are several misconceptions hidden in these statements:

The BBT is not about the origin of the universe. Rather, its primary focus is the development of the universe over time.
BBT does not imply that the universe was ever point-like.
The origin of the universe was not an explosion of matter into already existing space.


it should be called "the big woosh" and "an expansion" and people would understand it better.
people imagine some sort of cosmic hand-grenade...


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15 Sep 2009, 2:53 pm

JetLag wrote:
I think that since the second law of thermodynamics states each system left to its own devices tends to go from order to disorder, the universe could not have existed in the past. Or, to put it a different way, since the universe is becoming more and more chaotic, it cannot be eternal.

I think that this means that the universe, just like everything else that is made, had to have a beginning; but I don't think it was from the Big Bang, though, because a big bang is just a big explosion and big explosions destroy things, not create them.

But if the time-space universe had a beginning, then I believe that someone or something must have caused - created or made - it. And so I go along with those who believe that the One who created the universe is God.


I'll add that you lack a basic understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

"Applications to living systems
Main article: Entropy and life
The second law of thermodynamics has been proven mathematically for thermodynamic systems, where entropy is defined in terms of heat divided by the absolute temperature. The second law is often applied to other situations, such as the complexity of life, or orderliness. [14] However it is incorrect to apply the closed-system expression of the second law of thermodynamics to any one sub-system connected by mass-energy flows to another ("open system"). In sciences such as biology and biochemistry the application of thermodynamics is well-established, e.g. biological thermodynamics. The general viewpoint on this subject is summarized well by biological thermodynamicist Donald Haynie; as he states: "Any theory claiming to describe how organisms originate and continue to exist by natural causes must be compatible with the first and second laws of thermodynamics."[15]

This is very different, however, from the claim made by many creationists that evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Evidence indicates that biological systems and evolution of those systems conform to the second law, since although biological systems may become more ordered, the net change in entropy for the entire universe is still positive as a result of evolution.[16] Additionally, the process of natural selection responsible for such local increase in order may be mathematically derived from the expression of the second law equation for non-equilibrium connected open systems,[17] arguably making the Theory of Evolution itself an expression of the Second Law.

Furthermore, the second law is only true of closed systems. It is easy to decrease entropy, with an energy source. For example, a refrigerator separates warm and cold air, but only when it is plugged in. Since all biology requires an external energy source, the Sun, there's nothing unusual (thermodynamically) with it growing more complex with time."

Source: Wikipedia



iamnotaparakeet
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15 Sep 2009, 3:57 pm

number5 wrote:
JetLag wrote:
I think that since the second law of thermodynamics states each system left to its own devices tends to go from order to disorder, the universe could not have existed in the past. Or, to put it a different way, since the universe is becoming more and more chaotic, it cannot be eternal.

I think that this means that the universe, just like everything else that is made, had to have a beginning; but I don't think it was from the Big Bang, though, because a big bang is just a big explosion and big explosions destroy things, not create them.

But if the time-space universe had a beginning, then I believe that someone or something must have caused - created or made - it. And so I go along with those who believe that the One who created the universe is God.


I'll add that you lack a basic understanding of the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

"Applications to living systems
Main article: Entropy and life
The second law of thermodynamics has been proven mathematically for thermodynamic systems, where entropy is defined in terms of heat divided by the absolute temperature. The second law is often applied to other situations, such as the complexity of life, or orderliness. [14] However it is incorrect to apply the closed-system expression of the second law of thermodynamics to any one sub-system connected by mass-energy flows to another ("open system"). In sciences such as biology and biochemistry the application of thermodynamics is well-established, e.g. biological thermodynamics. The general viewpoint on this subject is summarized well by biological thermodynamicist Donald Haynie; as he states: "Any theory claiming to describe how organisms originate and continue to exist by natural causes must be compatible with the first and second laws of thermodynamics."[15]

This is very different, however, from the claim made by many creationists that evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Evidence indicates that biological systems and evolution of those systems conform to the second law, since although biological systems may become more ordered, the net change in entropy for the entire universe is still positive as a result of evolution.[16] Additionally, the process of natural selection responsible for such local increase in order may be mathematically derived from the expression of the second law equation for non-equilibrium connected open systems,[17] arguably making the Theory of Evolution itself an expression of the Second Law.

Furthermore, the second law is only true of closed systems. It is easy to decrease entropy, with an energy source. For example, a refrigerator separates warm and cold air, but only when it is plugged in. Since all biology requires an external energy source, the Sun, there's nothing unusual (thermodynamically) with it growing more complex with time."

Source: Wikipedia


"The heat death is a possible final state of the universe, in which it has "run down" to a state of no thermodynamic free energy to sustain motion or life. In physical terms, it has reached maximum entropy. The hypothesis of a universal heat death stems from the 1850s ideas of William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin who extrapolated the theory of heat views of mechanical energy loss in nature, as embodied in the first two laws of thermodynamics, to universal operation.

The idea of heat death stems from the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy tends to increase in an isolated system. If the universe lasts for a sufficient time, it will asymptotically approach a state where all energy is evenly distributed. In other words, in nature there is a tendency to the dissipation (energy loss) of mechanical energy (motion); hence, by extrapolation, there exists the view that the mechanical movement of the universe will run down in time due to the second law. The idea of heat death was first proposed in loose terms beginning in 1851 by William Thomson, 1st Baron Kelvin, who theorized further on the mechanical energy loss views of Sadi Carnot (1824), James Joule (1843), and Rudolf Clausius (1850). Thomson’s views were then elaborated on more definitively over the next decade by Hermann von Helmholtz and William Rankine."

Source: Wikipedia



Dantac
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19 Sep 2009, 10:23 am

Watch this :

http://www.tenthdimension.com/medialinks.php

The short answer is yes, everything that can exist does exist.



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22 Sep 2009, 1:20 am

I think the universe is full of everything which could not violate the laws of physics like for instance cows flying around the moon. Or even the existance of angles. But I am sure there must be other Earths out there because they would not violate the laws of physics. A tiny fraction of them would be almost like a carbon copy of our earth whereas most may share fact that life exists on them.



iamnotaparakeet
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22 Sep 2009, 1:27 am

paulsinnerchild wrote:
I think the universe is full of everything which could not violate the laws of physics like for instance cows flying around the moon. Or even the existance of angles. But I am sure there must be other Earths out there because they would not violate the laws of physics. A tiny fraction of them would be almost like a carbon copy of our earth whereas most may share fact that life exists on them.


There's a deference between violating a law and superseding a law. Also, all scientific laws are descriptive and cannot be prescriptive.

But I'll have you know that a man named Euclid of Alexandria believed in the existence of angles,
and he was smart enough to give high school students headaches even today.



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22 Sep 2009, 5:34 am

RichardBB wrote:
Dilbert wrote:
The latest evidence suggests that the space-time is relatively flat and thus infinite, as opposed to being curved in on itself like a soap bubble (which is what we once though it might have looked like).

However the amount of matter in the universe is finite. So no, it isn't true that everything that could exist does exist.


So does that mean if you kept traveling through the universe in a spacecraft, eventually you will get to a bunch of empty space.


It rather depends what you mean by "empty" - if you point your spacecraft "up" out of the galactic plane and fly a few hundred miles up you'll find somewhat empty space (as in hard vacuum). Fly a couple of light years and you'll find more empty space as you leave the solar system. Fly a thousand light years "up" and you'll find very large areas of even emptier space as you leave the galaxy completely.

I'm not sure what would happen if you just made sure your spacecraft was out of the way of things and waited for an extremely long amount of time - everything might appear to recede around you until you were left alone. Athough expansion might break your ship apart... really not sure.

(edit) The extent of the solar system is a fairly debatable thing, but a couple of light years should take you well clear of the Oort cloud. I'm less sure about the distribution of the interstellar medium - dust and whatnot - around the galaxy, but a thousand light years is probably enough to clear the main body of stars, they're in a fairly thin disk towards the outskirts, where we are (there's a bumpy bit in the middle though.) :) Then you've got a distance to the nearest proper galaxies, many times larger than the diameter of the Milky Way. Very empty. :)


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