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Spazzergasm
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06 May 2010, 11:01 am

Um, harsh, and a bit strange?
That was a nice poem, though. I like the ending.



iamnotaparakeet
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06 May 2010, 11:05 am

Kenjuudo wrote:
monsterland wrote:
Kenjuudo wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
Going to church. Somebody had to say it. :shrug:
No they didn't. No offense, but I'm too immature to not get riled up when anybody mentions any religious concept as a normal, healthy or rational thing to occupy themselves with. There is a reason why I absolutely never enter the philosophy/religion board - I simply can't take it.


I have a similar attitude toward those preaching the religion of atheism. I simply don't have enough faith to be an atheist.
Storm, to her credit,
despite my derision,
keeps firing off clichés
with startling precision,
like a sniper using
bollocks for ammunition.

-"You're so sure of your position,
but you're just close-minded,
I think you'll find that
your faith in science and tests,
is just as blind as the
faith of any fundamentalist."

Well, that's a good point,
let me think for a bit...

Oh wait, my mistake,
that's absolute BS.

Science adjusts it's views
based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation,
so that belief can be preserved.

If you show me that, say,
homeopathy works, then,
I will change my mind,
I will spin on a f***ing dime.
I'll be embarrassed as hell,
but I will run through the streets yelling:

It's a Miracle!
Take physics and bin it!
Water has memory!
And whilst it's memory
of a long lost drop
of onion juice seems infinite,
it somehow forgets
all the poo it's had in it.

You show me that it works,
and how it works,
and when I've recovered
from the shock,
I will take a compass
and carve 'fancy that'
on the side of my cock.

Excerpt from Storm by Tim Minchin

I don't see if there is anything else I need to add to this.


That it only counters lame arguments as well as utilizes a false dichotomy. The issues are far more complicated than "religion versus science", which in essence is merely marketing anyhow. Scientists who are also Christians tend to view things more along the lines of "you can't get something from nothing", which is why there are laws such as the conservation of mass/energy, Kirchoff's Laws, et cetera. This is related to the cosmological argument for the existence of a deity. The teleological arguments, which have existed and been refined since the days of Plato and Cicero, deal with aspects of design in nature and conclude that a designer is implied.



Kenjuudo
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06 May 2010, 11:15 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
That it only counters lame arguments as well as utilizes a false dichotomy. The issues are far more complicated than "religion versus science", which in essence is merely marketing anyhow. Scientists who are also Christians tend to view things more along the lines of "you can't get something from nothing", which is why there are laws such as the conservation of mass/energy, Kirchoff's Laws, et cetera. This is related to the cosmological argument for the existence of a deity. The teleological arguments, which have existed and been refined since the days of Plato and Cicero, deal with aspects of design in nature and conclude that a designer is implied.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kK1YgR7J0g[/youtube]

Spazzergasm wrote:
Um, harsh, and a bit strange?
That was a nice poem, though. I like the ending.
It was just an excerpt from it. Here's the whole thing:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jbc_Vhw[/youtube]


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iamnotaparakeet
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06 May 2010, 11:34 am

Kenjuudo wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
That it only counters lame arguments as well as utilizes a false dichotomy. The issues are far more complicated than "religion versus science", which in essence is merely marketing anyhow. Scientists who are also Christians tend to view things more along the lines of "you can't get something from nothing", which is why there are laws such as the conservation of mass/energy, Kirchoff's Laws, et cetera. This is related to the cosmological argument for the existence of a deity. The teleological arguments, which have existed and been refined since the days of Plato and Cicero, deal with aspects of design in nature and conclude that a designer is implied.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kK1YgR7J0g[/youtube]


Quote:
...Imagine early man. Early man, like everything else, is an evolved creature...


Starting with that axiom, you have set up your entire conclusion.



Kenjuudo
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06 May 2010, 12:03 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Quote:
...Imagine early man. Early man, like everything else, is an evolved creature...
Starting with that axiom, you have set up your entire conclusion.
And starting with anything else is blatantly wrong. If you are, then this discussion ends here. I have no intention in trying to convince you.


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Spazzergasm
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06 May 2010, 12:19 pm

I can't see youtube videos.



Kenjuudo
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06 May 2010, 12:32 pm

Spazzergasm wrote:
I can't see youtube videos.
You can go here:

http://launchyoutube.com/

And paste in this url (to reach Tim Minchin's Storm):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0W7Jbc_Vhw


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iamnotaparakeet
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06 May 2010, 1:04 pm

Kenjuudo wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Quote:
...Imagine early man. Early man, like everything else, is an evolved creature...
Starting with that axiom, you have set up your entire conclusion.
And starting with anything else is blatantly wrong. If you are, then this discussion ends here. I have no intention in trying to convince you.


That's fine if you want to end it here. Try questioning things though, rather than accepting them blindly. See what the actual evidence is, rather than just accepting conclusions because you're taught them.



Kenjuudo
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06 May 2010, 1:40 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kenjuudo wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Quote:
...Imagine early man. Early man, like everything else, is an evolved creature...
Starting with that axiom, you have set up your entire conclusion.
And starting with anything else is blatantly wrong. If you are, then this discussion ends here. I have no intention in trying to convince you.


That's fine if you want to end it here. Try questioning things though, rather than accepting them blindly. See what the actual evidence is, rather than just accepting conclusions because you're taught them.
Listen: This is not the religion forum. I don't ever go to the religion forum, because I can't stand discussing religion. The reason for this, is because I find it infinitely frustrating that it's possible for people to believe in some imaginary idea - and even suggest that "be open, that particular imaginative idea could be real". It's so sad I want to cry for the sake of humanity... Stop the discussion now, or I'll be unable to help myself and start using expletives.


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iamnotaparakeet
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06 May 2010, 1:44 pm

Kenjuudo wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Kenjuudo wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Quote:
...Imagine early man. Early man, like everything else, is an evolved creature...
Starting with that axiom, you have set up your entire conclusion.
And starting with anything else is blatantly wrong. If you are, then this discussion ends here. I have no intention in trying to convince you.


That's fine if you want to end it here. Try questioning things though, rather than accepting them blindly. See what the actual evidence is, rather than just accepting conclusions because you're taught them.
Listen: This is not the religion forum. I don't ever go to the religion forum, because I can't stand discussing religion. The reason for this, is because I find it infinitely frustrating that it's possible for people to believe in some imaginary idea - and even suggest that "be open, that particular imaginative idea could be real". It's so sad I want to cry for the sake of humanity... Stop the discussion now, or I'll be unable to help myself and start using expletives.
It takes two to tango, so if you want to stop, then don't reply anymore.



Kenjuudo
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06 May 2010, 1:48 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
It takes two to tango, so if you want to stop, then don't reply anymore.
Well, true. Ok, I've stopped.


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iamnotaparakeet
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06 May 2010, 1:53 pm

Kenjuudo wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
It takes two to tango, so if you want to stop, then don't reply anymore.
Well, true. Ok, I've stopped.
I've stopped now too. :P



Spazzergasm
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06 May 2010, 2:27 pm

Ugh, and just when I wanted to ask why it is so absolutely imaginary!



Malbred
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06 May 2010, 8:17 pm

Trading card games



Darkword
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06 May 2010, 8:23 pm

@kenjudo- I'm a fan of Adams, good to know we share exactly the same viewpoint on religion. So sick of people bringing up all this evidence of early people worshiping a god/gods as evidence that there is a god.



monsterland
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06 May 2010, 11:06 pm

Kenjuudo wrote:
Storm, to her credit,
despite my derision,
keeps firing off clichés
with startling precision,
like a sniper using
bollocks for ammunition.

-"You're so sure of your position,
but you're just close-minded,
I think you'll find that
your faith in science and tests,
is just as blind as the
faith of any fundamentalist."

Well, that's a good point,
let me think for a bit...

Oh wait, my mistake,
that's absolute BS.

Science adjusts it's views
based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation,
so that belief can be preserved.

If you show me that, say,
homeopathy works, then,
I will change my mind,
I will spin on a f***ing dime.
I'll be embarrassed as hell,
but I will run through the streets yelling:

It's a Miracle!
Take physics and bin it!
Water has memory!
And whilst it's memory
of a long lost drop
of onion juice seems infinite,
it somehow forgets
all the poo it's had in it.

You show me that it works,
and how it works,
and when I've recovered
from the shock,
I will take a compass
and carve 'fancy that'
on the side of my cock.

Excerpt from Storm by Tim Minchin

I don't see if there is anything else I need to add to this.


As someone already point out, science vs. faith is a false dichotomy. And as someone who has a very scientific and analytical mindset, I observe startling parallels between the laws of our Universe and creation of complex virtual worlds in form of videogames.

In particular, one law rings true - Garbage In, Garbage Out. In order for this planet to have eventually formed into something so beautiful, populated with so many diverse creatures, there had to be initial laws of interaction of Universe's smallest elements, which eventually evolved into their current state via evolutionary processes.

In game programming this is called procedural content generation. You can only produce meaningful procedural content when you make meaningful interaction routines, which can NOT be random or chaotic by themselves.

So, in order to be an "atheist", i.e. someone who actively rejects the existence of an Outside Higher Force, I am required to have FAITH, that despite all the scientific evidence and laws I observe, procedural content can be created based on rules of chaos.

I don't have this much faith. It's easier to believe in other things. But in the end, thats why I classify myself as agnostic - because in this life, I will never truly know. And thats why both hardcore religious folks and atheists are the same exact breed of person to me - someone seeking a feeling of superiority, either moral or intellectual, as their primary goal.