Which wooden Lilith statue should I consider getting?

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After reading this I think I'm starting to maybe understand Lilith more. It's a fascinating read!

https://thevampireproject.blogspot.com/ ... s.html?m=1

TL; DR.

My take is this: feminism is more complex than some people have painted it to be, and the plethora of stories about all the deities--male or female--are just stories created by humans trying to make sense of the world. If you're trying to find the "true" interpretation of a god/goddess, give up now. You'll make yourself crazy.

If you're drawn to a deity, learn what you want, reflect on the qualities that mean something to you and ask how the less appealing traits might actually teach you something. Is something "bad" actually bad? Says who, and why?

The world is full of death and decay. Without that, there would be no life, so, make your peace with "the dark side."

Something I just realized that I forgot to tell you about working with 'actual' Lilith.

There was an interesting Silvia Brown lecture I heard years ago (even before I was on the path) where she described seven-up, seven-down realms, and this one in the middle for fifteen. What she said in particular about Lilith, via her guide, was very interesting - that she exists in the lowest hell realm but... she exists there as a very advanced being who keeps a lot of the wild life and 'junk thought' that exists down there under management.

It's interesting that having the seven and seven that she did resembles the levels of both the Tree of Life and Qliphoth, so there's actually an interesting overlap with my Temple of Ascending Flame work, just a slight difference that in that system the Qliphoth in it's entirety is her body, and the way they play with the Lucifer and Lilith relationship very much reminds me of how Thelema works with Nuit and Hadit - ie. the vast feminine and potential (Nuit) and the fine-point, almost pin-prick but smaller, but extremely bright and focused masculine energy (Hadit). TOAF puts Lucifer in the throne of Thaumiel but from a lot of the invocations I'm pretty sure this is going the same way (ie. the trident, invocation of the 'dragon pathways' up the spine as well as the energy of the trident of Lucifer).


The thing to remember if you actually do invocation or evocation with Lilith - she's a sub-identity of God. She is God in the sense that at the core she's unconditional love. Also, as a goddess, you can't really offend her - however - she'll size up exactly who you are and where you're at (or more aptly she already knew all of those details) and she meets you halfway on what you need. I remember thinking of the Silvia Brown model and seeing Lilith in the context of dialectically destroying these very primitive Darwinian structures with surgical logic and recycling their freed components - that made me very much see Thoth in her, ie. extremely Mercurial, but picture the intellectual brilliance of Thoth in a goth girl goddess, that's pretty much what I got.

I'd say just keep those added details on you as well if you're thinking of doing anything with this.

Another aside - working with gods and goddess in general, especially goddesses, can be a situation very reminiscent of you being two or three years old and a teenage cousin comes over and play-tackles you like you're an adorable puppy. They can love-bomb you a bit like that but to a degree having that overwhelm any communication can feel almost condescending (not intentionally but it's a bit like you'd love to ask a million questions but can't). It's possible that this could be more of a 'me' thing and you might experience something slightly different but I guess the core message here - consider that whoever you're working with you'll be in good hands.

Sounds like you're on to something here. Just keep at it.

Lilith is a screech owl. Creature of the night that lives beyond the light of the campfire. And instead of seeking acceptence and being welcomed into the tribe gathered around the campfire she just...revels in being an outsider.

Maybe you long for the courage to ...revel in NOT being accepted, and being an outsider. Something like that?

Feminism may be complex but to me the lines between feminism and misandry have become blurred now, more than it ever was in the past when women really were fighting for choice, equality, and the right to not be treated like property. Lilith does NOT represent feminism to me, and I do not care if every other feminist, misandrist or not, disagrees with me on that.

Lilith is a very complex being who has always held a grudge against the sons and daughters of Adam. Or even in her other forms she clearly did not care for the wellbeing of any human, male or female. She is not a friend to women wanting to "overthrow the patriarchy". Pardon my language but that's complete BS cooked up by people who don't really bother to research her and if they do read a little about her they are quick to discount it because it was not what they wanted to hear.

Neopagans and such have twisted her into this feminist icon by ignoring every single presented fact about her mythology and history. I admit even i myself was guilty of doing this until I began to research the actual truth about her.

And it bothers me the way so many people have eagerly embraced lies and misinformation about her trying to transform her into something she is not. If feminists in the wiccan and neopagan community want an empowering Goddess to look up to there are plenty of better alternatives out there they should consider like Inanna or Artemis. Inanna is probably my personal favorite because she is actually considered "The First Goddess" and she was the epitome of a woman free to do as she wanted and was admired and respected for her independent spirit. But was seperates her from Lilith is that Inanna was capable of genuine love and compassion, even though her wrath against any man who betrayed her was severe.

Lilith on the other hand, was all about hate and selfishness. And her ancestor Lamashtu was evil and cruelty with no real motive. Just a desire to cause hurt. Which is why I think of her and many of her so-called feminist admirers as linked more to misandry (the hatred of men) than a need for equality and the right to make choice.

But Lilith for all her darkness and unpleasant nature which some feminists and neopagans have often whitewashed to all hell does represent some uncomfortable truths about our world. Nature cannot and will not be completely "tamed" by humans and it isn't always our benevolent friend. When humans overpopulate like any animal species such as deer or rats it brings about bad things in the long run. Disease and natural disaster spreads to try and even things out, not to mention the predators who come out. The wolves for the deer and the cats for the rats, and who's to say that climate chance isn't being aided by the Liliths and other "demons" to keep humans in what should be their proper place in this world? Maybe Covid was just a taste of her power and of things to come?

I know it sounds pretty dwarwinist though. Still...

But I just don't buy all the endless whitewashed misinformation Ive seen pushed about her on the internet and in new age books anymore by people who wish to distort all history and mythology. In fact given the way that neopaganism is now being strongly influenced people who push their annoying political agendas on witchcraft and spirituality without doing the proper research on any of these ancient deities or crafts... I'm starting to question my own place in neopaganism. It's clearly becoming like any other religion that has no place for heretics who question anything.

Anyways i applogize for the long rant. I hope im not coming across as anti-feminist or too political. I just have strong feelings about this subject lol

I will try my best to take your advice on this. Thanks.

I guess we do have somewhat different views on what Lilith is. I think you see a more benign side to Lilith while my view is mostly concerning her very dark side.

But I feel that no matter how 'dark' a deity is, there is some wisdom to be found in every one of them.

I would never want to be associated with the deaths of children and pregnant mothers, nor the sexual assault of men as they slept (I personally believe both Lilith and Lamashtu were rapists of men, but as awful as that is let's face it so was Zues and over half the gods in Greek Mythology like his brothers Poseidon and possibly even Hades).

But maybe that in itself is connected to some who say Lilith helps victims of sexual assault and trauma overcome their pain?

And she is indeed a fiercely independent spirit. I admire that, and her suppposed connection to homosexuality and other 'undesirables' in society (like me)

I even believe she is connected to things like birth control and abortion. I guess that is one example of how she actually can work in the favor of women's rights but it doesnt necessarily have to be a pure feminist issue. I know abortion is a touchy subject and I personally admit to having mixed feelings about it, but I also strongly support the freedom of choice so I rarely comment on it. But it definey feels like something linked to Lilith.

Last edited by DeathFlowerKing on 12 Dec 2022, 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yes very much. Hell as an Aspie I feel like an outsider among my fellow Aspies. As a witch I'm an outsider among other witches for things like the Lilith issue. And as someone who leans liberal in his political beliefs I feel like an outsider among liberals because I don't think every single thing conservatives supported was always bad. Maybe I'm actually more an independent?

A very dark, potentially scary, sort of 'chaotic good' - where she could give you a big vampire grin and you wouldn't know if she's slipping back into predator mode (and she'd just do it to take the piss or give you an anxiety fluff). Also - she does enjoy men, even a bit more if there's still an innate Catholic flash of fear of hell when with her because it's more she can pull on and shape, because these days men are a place where she has power (check OnlyFans to see what I mean) which is something she enjoys playing with.

She's definitely a teacher, just a very complex one that can send you on rollercoaster rides (like Bruce Willis in Die Hard dragging a rookie for a ride-along).

I sort of think the gods and goddesses evolve over time, a bit like they're literally made of shared intent and belief and thus if feminists have softened her Saturnian side for several decades - that intention might be a significant pool of who she is by now.

So to the degree that gods or goddesses would be 'real', they're very much like egregores for the most part (group minds and beliefs weighted across history - ie. they're 'smeared out' across time), they're network effects across people, something like living transpersonal objects. I think I've said it before but when synchronicity goes crazy for someone for a few weeks - I think that's a symptom of a tree-shake at higher levels of conscious organization cascading down, and the person who experiences it happens to be in the right time and place (and their behavior that seems to have 'triggered' the synchronicities may well have fed from the future - they feel like they caused the action but rather it compelled them). Those collective levels seem to be the 'world of the gods'.

I dunno, many feminists do seem to worship and admire her now and I can understand why to an extent. But i also know that many people are highly misinformed about her.

Could it be possible that as a demonic entity she herself is allowing the misconceptions about her to spread not because she actually cares for women's rights but because she's getting a kick out of stoking the fires of hatred and distrust between men and women in our already damaged society?

To me she is the opposite of procreation being anticreation. So if she can encourage men and women to not trust each other she would be smiling at the part she plays in decreasing population and ruining families as less young people are getting married and having children.

Plus like the fictional goddess Namira from that video game connected to rot and decay as a natural part of new life given growth, she must be playing a part in the slow fall of Western Civilization. I think a lot of this tension and anxiety in our side of the world was partly created by her and she is encouraging people who wish to "tear the system down". Maybe it's just a natural process for making room for the next world though?

It's kinda like those Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse who play a part not only in the end of days but in the fall or every civilization throughout history. At least thats my theory.

Btw the only real dilemma I have with working with Lilith is that my friends all hate her and believe she is pure evil. I want to respect their opinions because they are my best and closest friends, but at the same I don't feel as drawn to any other deity as I do Lilith. She has truly taught me so much and I feel that she has helped in my spellwork whenever I put serious effort into it.

Yeah..i was gonna ask you to ask yourself "what do you get from Lilith that you couldnt get from the Virgin Mary?" The Virgin Mary being the one and only de facto "goddess" allowed in mainstream American society. But the Virgin Mary is also a thorny subject. But you seemed to have to have answered that question already. Lilith is more of a 'biker chic' than Mary so to speak...an outsider. More specifically speaking to you than Mary.

About Mary:

Protestants and Jews condemn the Catholic Church for elevating Mary to a defacto Pagan-like goddess, but IMHO the RCC is simply bowing to human nature. Humans (men and women alike) seem to crave the option of imaging God with a female face once and awhile. Praying to a mother figure.

Every Mexican lowrider hombre has a pic of the Virgin of Guadalupe hanging from his rear view mirror, because Mexico is a Catholic culture, and her image is also a symbol of Mexican ethnic pride. But for you, a White guy in the US. Protestant Bible Belt, it may not be socially acceptable to hang pics of the Virgin Mary around. But it might be more acceptable than pics of Lilith. Lol!

Lol I guess it's really all about that edge and a desire to rebel against societal norms.

I can see her as a definite symbol of rebellion against the established order created not just by men but by humans themselves. Rebellion and defiance for the sake of rebellion and defiance.

I think Lilith is also playing a key role in the destruction of the old world as we make way for the new world.

The old world is simply rotting away.

She is linked to snakes after all and one impprtant symbol i think of when I think of snakes is the ouroboros. The serpent that devours its own tail destroying and rejuvenating itself at the same time.

I know it's not directly linked to HER serpent form in the Garden of Eden, but to me all spiritual beliefs can be linked together if one tries to compare these things to find similar meaning.




Maybe Lilith wishes to create a new Eden without the human offspring of Adam and Eve who have ruined nature itself?

When I can get me a statue for my altar I think I should next work on getting some Lilith-themed objects to decorate my altar like this tarot card box and demon sigil.

TBH - You'll want to get some type of practice up and running, particularly meditative.

There are different places you can look, one of them I worked through was Israel Regardie's One Year Manual (mostly meditative work and what rituals are there happen to be pretty simple - like Rose Cross and Middle Pillar).

Also worth checking out various topics on the JungToLiveBy Youtube channel and get a sense of what they say about inner structure of human psyche.

Well if it matters sometimes I feel that she reveals herself to me when I try to meditate while shuffling and reading cards.

The last two visions I had of her I first saw her as a beautiful dark skinned beauty dancing in gold and silk garbs in my mind (although I also thought this could have been Inanna, this first reading was for a friend and his reading turned out much more positive than my own)

The second reading in the cards I laid for myself she appeared to me in the form of a woman's face screaming in pain wrapped in bloody bandages to conceal her true face. I also saw a vision of an exposed human heart beating that was being encircled by two greenish gold colored Asian dragons that werw long and slender like snakes and they started to devour this heart.

I won't reveal my friend's reading without his permission but my own reading seemed to hint at pigginess and poor health choices on my part. Plus warnings of some sort of danger. I was using Hanafuda cards in this particular reading btw.