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funeralxempire
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07 May 2024, 3:20 pm

BillyTree wrote:
I think slogans like "any man can be a rapist" or "any man can be a violent assaulter" are not only an insult to men but actually harmful to women. I read that 0,5% of the men in my country are convicted sex offenders. That makes it about four times more likeley that a man is autistic or twenty times more likely that he's openly gay than he's a sex offender. Of course you can speculate about the number of men escaping justice or innocent ones being convicted, but let's not go down that road. Instead of lumping together 99,5% of men with that small group of offenders I think it's better to focus on what sets the 0,5% apart from men in general and fund research in that field so that women can learn to spot the warning signs. A lot of violence, included sexual, against women is by a partner or someone the woman willingly had engaged with. And a lot of the men that attack and assault women they don't know are in a long term relationship with a woman. And I doubt any of these offenders are incels. This is a clear indication that women are rather clueless about these warning signs.


Are you suggesting that the small minority of men who are rapists can be readily identified from the rest of the male population?

If not than you should probably concede there is truth to the idea that any man can be a rapist. Not because all men are rapists, but because there's nothing unique about rapists except for a specific behaviour.


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07 May 2024, 3:41 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
bee33 wrote:
And once again, talking about sexual violence against women has been derailed by turning it into a discussion about self defense.

The bigger issue is a much more important issue, and it's the issue that the meme is about. This is another validation of the importance of the message of the meme and how no one apparently wants to hear it.


Just like you can't talk about racism without the conversation becoming hijacked by wipepo's insecurities you can't talk about women's issues without the conversation becoming hijacked by men's insecurities.

They always seem to turn into zero-sum discussions that revolve around the dominant group's concerns, meaning any attempt at positive change will always be treated like it's actually costing the dominant group in some way.

I think this is an important point. It’s really hard to talk about this topic without people getting butt-hurt. No one on WP thinks that all men are rapists, but someone could be a rapist. It’s a possibility. A lot of folks here have experienced sexual violence and know about possibilities all too well.

Maybe insecurities are why there is often some degree of victim-blaming going on. “Women are really bad at missing warning signs” or “women should learn to defend themselves.”

How about people stop raping? Put the blame/responsibility squarely where it belongs.


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07 May 2024, 4:28 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
^ It IS victim-blamey. It’s shifting the focus from the perpetrator to the victim. It happens too much, and it needs to change.

It shouldn’t be hard to imagine how self-defense would be completely ineffective in many different scenarios.

Yes, I think "victim-blamey" is a more accurate description than just equating a self-defense pamphlet with victim-blaming. The way I'd put it is that the fact of self-defense opportunities can be twisted into justifying victim-blaming, in the same kind of way that Darwin can be twisted into justifying a survival-of-the-fittest ideology. But I can advocate self-defense without blaming people who don't use it, just as I can support Darwin without supporting a jungle society.

No doubt there are situations in which self-defense skills and weaponry are useless. An armed soldier may be shot in the back. But if I have to walk through a dangerous place, I think I'd be somewhat safer if I had a pepper spray, taser, or gun at the ready and knew how to use it. Of course the protection would have its limits.

Quote:
Society needs to change.

Yes. Meanwhile, self-defense is all we have, and it might fend off a few attacks at least.



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07 May 2024, 4:43 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
TwilightPrincess wrote:
^ It IS victim-blamey. It’s shifting the focus from the perpetrator to the victim. It happens too much, and it needs to change.

It shouldn’t be hard to imagine how self-defense would be completely ineffective in many different scenarios.

No doubt there are situations in which self-defense skills and weaponry are useless. An armed soldier may be shot in the back. But if I have to walk through a dangerous place, I think I'd be somewhat safer if I had a pepper spray, taser, or gun at the ready and knew how to use it. Of course the protection would have its limits.
As I’ve already highlighted, most people aren’t attacked by strangers. Most often they are assaulted by acquaintances and/or “friends.” One is unlikely to have pepper spray or a taser on standby at all times. Self-defense would be ineffective much of the time, especially taking into account other variables. It wouldn’t have helped with my situations. Not all women would have access to pepper spray, taser guns, or self-defense classes anyway. A brochure is not going to help. It’s a bit insulting, actually…
Quote:
Quote:
Society needs to change.

Yes. Meanwhile, self-defense is all we have, and it might fend off a few attacks at least.
Given how limited self-defense is, we need to put fewer expectations on victims and spend much more time raising awareness, educating teens, improving laws, and believing victims.


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Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 07 May 2024, 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bee33
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07 May 2024, 4:45 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:

Quote:
Society needs to change.

Yes. Meanwhile, self-defense is all we have, and it might fend off a few attacks at least.

Can we please please just stop talking about self defense. Regardless of the flaws or merits of self defense, it is not the topic here and it's derailing the actual topic of violence against women!



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07 May 2024, 4:48 pm

bee33 wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:

Quote:
Society needs to change.

Yes. Meanwhile, self-defense is all we have, and it might fend off a few attacks at least.

Can we please please just stop talking about self defense. Regardless of the flaws or merits of self defense, it is not the topic here and it's derailing the actual topic of violence against women!

Yes!!


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07 May 2024, 5:07 pm

TwilightPrincess wrote:
we need to put fewer expectations on victims and spend much more time raising awareness, educating teens, improving laws, and believing victims.

I think most of the bastards I've met wouldn't be much improved by trying to raise their awareness. I don't think the meme would change them either. It's got people talking, but mostly only in a polemical way, which I think just makes them stick harder to what they thought before. To win hearts and minds requires good people skills.

Law changes could be helpful. To get those, it would again be necessary to win hearts and minds via good people skills, and then maybe the lawmakers would have to bow down to the majority. The meme doesn't have good people skills.



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07 May 2024, 5:13 pm

I like the meme because, once again, it raises awareness in a clear and concise way, and it’s getting a lot of attention. I also find it relatable... In any event, it’s not like anyone expects this entire, huge topic to be summed up in one meme. There’s a lot of information out there that they can explore if their interest is piqued.


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07 May 2024, 5:26 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
BillyTree wrote:
I think slogans like "any man can be a rapist" or "any man can be a violent assaulter" are not only an insult to men but actually harmful to women. I read that 0,5% of the men in my country are convicted sex offenders. That makes it about four times more likeley that a man is autistic or twenty times more likely that he's openly gay than he's a sex offender. Of course you can speculate about the number of men escaping justice or innocent ones being convicted, but let's not go down that road. Instead of lumping together 99,5% of men with that small group of offenders I think it's better to focus on what sets the 0,5% apart from men in general and fund research in that field so that women can learn to spot the warning signs. A lot of violence, included sexual, against women is by a partner or someone the woman willingly had engaged with. And a lot of the men that attack and assault women they don't know are in a long term relationship with a woman. And I doubt any of these offenders are incels. This is a clear indication that women are rather clueless about these warning signs.


Are you suggesting that the small minority of men who are rapists can be readily identified from the rest of the male population?

If not than you should probably concede there is truth to the idea that any man can be a rapist. Not because all men are rapists, but because there's nothing unique about rapists except for a specific behaviour.

Do you actually believe that there is no psychological or personality difference between rapists and other men? Do you think it's a coincidence that only this small minority of men have this "specific behaviour"?


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07 May 2024, 5:33 pm

There isn't, at least not necessarily. You're assuming all offenders commit premeditated crime because of a psychological or personality flaw, when in reality at least some of them are under the influence, made a bad impulsive choice, or were goaded by friends in the case of parties. Some are premeditated. Some are aholes without empathy. Some commit once. Some commit several times. Some attack strangers. Some attack friends, wives, or even relatives including kids.

Do you actually believe all potential offenders can be identified by some sort of screening measure, and only women hold the key?

Big hugs to Bee and Twilight for such astute responses.

This is not about self-defence.

I haven't even seen the meme and nor do I want to, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was generated by a man to cause this kind of backlash against women's sensibilities.


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07 May 2024, 5:34 pm

BillyTree wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
BillyTree wrote:
I think slogans like "any man can be a rapist" or "any man can be a violent assaulter" are not only an insult to men but actually harmful to women. I read that 0,5% of the men in my country are convicted sex offenders. That makes it about four times more likeley that a man is autistic or twenty times more likely that he's openly gay than he's a sex offender. Of course you can speculate about the number of men escaping justice or innocent ones being convicted, but let's not go down that road. Instead of lumping together 99,5% of men with that small group of offenders I think it's better to focus on what sets the 0,5% apart from men in general and fund research in that field so that women can learn to spot the warning signs. A lot of violence, included sexual, against women is by a partner or someone the woman willingly had engaged with. And a lot of the men that attack and assault women they don't know are in a long term relationship with a woman. And I doubt any of these offenders are incels. This is a clear indication that women are rather clueless about these warning signs.


Are you suggesting that the small minority of men who are rapists can be readily identified from the rest of the male population?

If not than you should probably concede there is truth to the idea that any man can be a rapist. Not because all men are rapists, but because there's nothing unique about rapists except for a specific behaviour.

Do you actually believe that there is no psychological or personality difference between rapists and other men?

There aren’t necessarily differences that are perceptible to other people. Abusive people are often good at being manipulative and hiding it. The “friend” who raped me when I was in college was popular and well-liked. No one had any suspicions about him whatsoever. As a matter of fact, when I told a fellow student she didn’t believe me. (I didn’t realize that she was friends with the guy.) She and that as*hole spread around that I was making it up. Then I heard people talking behind my back about it when I returned to school the following year. Fun times.

It would be so easy if there were obvious differences. If that were the case, there’d be fewer victims of rape, especially date rape.


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funeralxempire
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07 May 2024, 6:00 pm

BillyTree wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
BillyTree wrote:
I think slogans like "any man can be a rapist" or "any man can be a violent assaulter" are not only an insult to men but actually harmful to women. I read that 0,5% of the men in my country are convicted sex offenders. That makes it about four times more likeley that a man is autistic or twenty times more likely that he's openly gay than he's a sex offender. Of course you can speculate about the number of men escaping justice or innocent ones being convicted, but let's not go down that road. Instead of lumping together 99,5% of men with that small group of offenders I think it's better to focus on what sets the 0,5% apart from men in general and fund research in that field so that women can learn to spot the warning signs. A lot of violence, included sexual, against women is by a partner or someone the woman willingly had engaged with. And a lot of the men that attack and assault women they don't know are in a long term relationship with a woman. And I doubt any of these offenders are incels. This is a clear indication that women are rather clueless about these warning signs.


Are you suggesting that the small minority of men who are rapists can be readily identified from the rest of the male population?

If not than you should probably concede there is truth to the idea that any man can be a rapist. Not because all men are rapists, but because there's nothing unique about rapists except for a specific behaviour.

Do you actually believe that there is no psychological or personality difference between rapists and other men? Do you think it's a coincidence that only this small minority of men have this "specific behaviour"?


I believe they're much smaller than you're seeking to suggest.

It's hard to add anything to what Izzy and TP already said.

The differences aren't so obvious that one can just spot the rapists, if things worked that way there'd be a lot less instances of SA. You're trying to frame things as though people who commit these sorts of crimes are typically obvious bad guys, rather than regular guys who made the wrong decision.

I know you'd like to think that you're radically different from bad guys, but at the end of the day you're not. What separates you and I from the bad guys is how we choose to behave, nothing innate. It might satisfy the ego to imagine being innately different from the bad guys, but that doesn't mean it's actually grounded in reality or helpful when trying to discuss how to reduce SA.


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07 May 2024, 6:13 pm

It’s pretty unsettling to think that “bad guys” aren’t necessarily that different from anyone else. I think people expect reality to be like how it is on TV when it’s usually not like that.

My ex is a horrible human being but even he’s good at hiding it when he wants to. His primary interest in life is manipulating people so he can use them, so he gets a lot of practice with being deceptive. Acting is a profession. It can also be a lifestyle.


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07 May 2024, 6:21 pm

It's also unsettling when some people tell others that they should or shouldn't have a fear response to any situation, regardless of their gender.

Then there's the issue of some people forgetting that many victims are drugged, unconscious, or otherwise immobilized / incapacitated, eliminating their ability to practise self-defence. There may even be more than one offender.

I won't continue about self-defence but I'm rather incredulous at some of the misconceptions.


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07 May 2024, 6:29 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
It's also unsettling when some people tell others that they should or shouldn't have a fear response to any situation, regardless of their gender.

Then there's the issue of some people forgetting that many victims are drugged, unconscious, or otherwise immobilized / incapacitated, eliminating their ability to practise self-defence. There may even be more than one offender.

I won't continue about self-defence but I'm rather incredulous at some of the misconceptions.

Yeah, I’ve been feeling a bit incredulous too although some of us have to contend with this topic every single day. Others probably don’t think about it that much...


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07 May 2024, 6:40 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Then there's the issue of some people forgetting that many victims are drugged, unconscious, or otherwise immobilized / incapacitated, eliminating their ability to practise self-defence. There may even be more than one offender.


Not to mention, if you know someone you might be hesitant to hurt them and that might also be a consideration alongside the rest of the risk assessment. It's also easier to believe the person you're uncomfortable hurting will also be less willing to injure you before you've hurt them, especially if you're not very confident that hurting them will make them back off, or will, but will have even worse social (or other) consequences compared to just getting it over.

In the moment, before someone has fully processed what's going on their response might be heavily influenced by how the relationship between them will be afterwards. If they're close they might not even allow themselves to recognize what happened in the same way they identify it later on because doing so might be socially disruptive.

But of course, somehow self-defence is going to prevent those sorts of encounters.


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