Board index › Off Topic Discussion › Random Discussion

Is "gay Christian" an oxymoron?

Page 5 of 9 [ 134 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

IsabellaLinton
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Nov 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 72,422
Location: Chez Quis

18 Jul 2022, 1:32 pm

My male pastor has been married to a man for 25 years.
They also minister in mental health / corrections.

Do you believe Christ will send him to Hell for being in a devoted, monogamous relationship?

Also, regarding yourself as an "imperfect" person, why do you identify as Christian if there's no hope?


_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles


klanka
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Mar 2022
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,888
Location: Cardiff, Wales

18 Jul 2022, 2:22 pm

When Jesus picked grain on the sabbath and told the man to pick up his mat on the sabbath -both things were, on the surface, a sin. But due to circumstances they were not sins. E.g. if you break down a door to save someone you wont be held responsible for the door.


So when it comes to following the new testament you have to take into account circumstances. If a man is gay and has no attraction to women he can't marry a woman..so he has to do something..and if he is in love with a man circumstances dictate its OK.

It was OK to break the law of moses (ie commit a sin) if it would be causing inconvenience e.g. Jesus could have simply told the man to pick up his mat the next day...when it was not the sabbath..but he told him to pick it up immediately. So it must be ok to do things,that seem like sin, simply out of convenience.



IsabellaLinton
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Nov 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 72,422
Location: Chez Quis

18 Jul 2022, 2:31 pm

I don't believe anything is a sin if it doesn't hurt yourself or others, or in the case of devout Christians if it doesn't involve false idols or a lasting loss of faith.

Love and acts of charity trump hate, judgment, bigotry, and division in all religions.

End of story.


_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles


Cornflake
Administrator
Administrator

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 69,474
Location: Over there

18 Jul 2022, 2:34 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Lust, fornication and sodomy etc are the issue, because those are sins no matter what one's sexual orientation is.
Ah yes, sodomy - the word used when committed love between two men (and it always seems to be men in these scenarios) can't be condemned in any other way.

You know it's possible to have a loving relationship without sodomy, right? Likewise lust.
Fornication doesn't really count because that's sex between a man and a woman who aren't married to each other.

Serious question - how are you able to reconcile these major plot differences, these contradictions?
NPR Article wrote:
"In Mark's Gospel, Jesus is not interested in teaching about himself. But when you read John's Gospel, that's virtually the only thing Jesus talks about is who he is, what his identity is, where he came from," Ehrman says. "This is completely unlike anything that you find in Mark or in Matthew and Luke. And historically it creates all sorts of problems, because if the historical Jesus actually went around saying that he was God, it's very hard to believe that Matthew, Mark and Luke left out that part — you know, as if that part wasn't important to mention. But in fact, they don't mention it. And so this view of the divinity of Jesus on his own lips is found only in our latest Gospel, the Gospel of John."
https://www.npr.org/2010/03/12/12457269 ... he-gospels


_________________
Giraffe: a ruminant with a view.


IsabellaLinton
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 1 Nov 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 72,422
Location: Chez Quis

18 Jul 2022, 2:42 pm

Here I go again with Six Feet Under references, but I think it's relevant.

David is a gay Christian who becomes deacon of his Episcopal church.

The following is a very well-written montage of his experience coming out to family and to his parish:


_________________
I never give you my number, I only give you my situation.
Beatles


TwilightPrincess
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 30,084
Location: Hell

18 Jul 2022, 3:10 pm

The reality, not surprisingly, is that many have been driven to suicide due to these homophobic beliefs in religious communities (which explains my general problem with this thread and the dogma contained in it).

“Based on data from more than 21,000 U.S. college students, researchers found that greater religious feeling and engagement was tied to increased risk of suicidal thoughts and actions for participants who identified as LGBQ.

Among lesbians and gays who said religion was not important to them, there was no association between sexual orientation and recent suicide attempts. But being homosexual did significantly increase the likelihood of recent suicide attempts in people who said that religion was very important to them.“

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN1HK2MA

Homophobic beliefs and doctrines can and do make fervent LGBTQ+ believers think that God will never accept them for being who they are, which is understandable if they were indoctrinated with these beliefs.

I follow a Spanish podcast that generally talks about the problems with suicide among LGBTQ+ members of my former homophobic religious community. It’s a serious problem that impacts a lot of people.

And don’t say that they can choose to remain celibate. People are, generally, social creatures who deserve loving and fulfilling relationships.

Any decent religious community should bring love, not despair, but maybe that’s me being too idealistic.


_________________
“Tú, que me lees, ¿estás seguro de entender mi lenguaje?” — Jorge Luis Borges


Matrix Glitch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Oct 2021
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,741
Location: US

18 Jul 2022, 6:25 pm

Cornflake wrote:
Matrix Glitch wrote:
Lust, fornication and sodomy etc are the issue, because those are sins no matter what one's sexual orientation is.
Ah yes, sodomy - the word used when committed love between two men (and it always seems to be men in these scenarios) can't be condemned in any other way.
You know it's possible to have a loving relationship without sodomy, right? Likewise lust.
Fornication doesn't really count because that's sex between a man and a woman who aren't married to each other.

They all count in the Bible and they apply to everyone. What you say is acceptable isn't what the Bible says is acceptable. Given the topic, I'm giving the Biblical and Christian view.
Cornflake wrote:
Serious question - how are you able to reconcile these major plot differences, these contradictions?
NPR Article wrote:
"In Mark's Gospel, Jesus is not interested in teaching about himself. But when you read John's Gospel, that's virtually the only thing Jesus talks about is who he is, what his identity is, where he came from," Ehrman says. "This is completely unlike anything that you find in Mark or in Matthew and Luke. And historically it creates all sorts of problems, because if the historical Jesus actually went around saying that he was God, it's very hard to believe that Matthew, Mark and Luke left out that part — you know, as if that part wasn't important to mention. But in fact, they don't mention it. And so this view of the divinity of Jesus on his own lips is found only in our latest Gospel, the Gospel of John."
https://www.npr.org/2010/03/12/12457269 ... he-gospels


I'd have to do a bit of research on that. I know who Bart Ehrman is, and I know the issues he brings up have been around a long time. But I haven't dug into them much. I do know of several apologists who could answer all of that quite well. It's not the sort of stuff that's gone unanswered. But here's the question, if the Bible is fake and Christianity is a sham, then why would you want anyone to join it?



klanka
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 31 Mar 2022
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,888
Location: Cardiff, Wales

18 Jul 2022, 6:36 pm

The four gospels form an overarching story.

The first three contain miracles and teachings, john is the answer to the previous three.



Matrix Glitch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Oct 2021
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,741
Location: US

18 Jul 2022, 6:54 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
My male pastor has been married to a man for 25 years.
They also minister in mental health / corrections.

Do you believe Christ will send him to Hell for being in a devoted, monogamous relationship?

Also, regarding yourself as an "imperfect" person, why do you identify as Christian if there's no hope?

The whole point of Christianity is we are all imperfect and that's why we needed Jesus who is perfect and without sin to take our place. When God looks at me, he doesn't see the sinful wretch I am, he sees Jesus, he sees the cross. Hell is the result of rejecting God and Jesus and the cross. Would someone who rejects all of that, who basically hates God, what to be in his direct presence 24/7? From a Christian perspective, those who don't have a relationship with God though Christ, are already in an unhappy place. Which is why they get drunk and do drugs and sleep around etc, because they're trying to fill a void in their life that can only be filled though a relationship with God. You, me and your male pastor all have a choice to either accept salvation, or to reject it.



Last edited by Matrix Glitch on 18 Jul 2022, 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

TwilightPrincess
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 30,084
Location: Hell

18 Jul 2022, 7:07 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
My male pastor has been married to a man for 25 years.
They also minister in mental health / corrections.

Do you believe Christ will send him to Hell for being in a devoted, monogamous relationship?

Also, regarding yourself as an "imperfect" person, why do you identify as Christian if there's no hope?

The whole point of Christianity is we are all imperfect and that's why we needed Jesus who is perfect and without sin to take our place. When God looks at me, he doesn't see the sinful wretch I am, he sees Jesus, he sees the cross. Hell is the result of rejecting God and Jesus and the cross. Would someone who rejects all of that, who basically hates God, what to be in his direct presence 24/7? From a Christian perspective, those who don't have a relationship with God though Christ, are already in an unhappy place. Which is why they get drunk and do drugs etc, because they're trying to fill a void in their life that can only be filled though a relationship with God. You, me and your male pastor all have a choice to either accept salvation, or to reject it.


It sounds like Isabella's pastor has already accepted it.

(I'm perfectly happy without God, as are many. Many people in different religions are, too.)


_________________
“Tú, que me lees, ¿estás seguro de entender mi lenguaje?” — Jorge Luis Borges


Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 18 Jul 2022, 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Matrix Glitch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Oct 2021
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,741
Location: US

18 Jul 2022, 7:09 pm

klanka wrote:
The four gospels form an overarching story.

The first three contain miracles and teachings, john is the answer to the previous three.


That's a good way to put it. The three synoptic gospels describe what Jesus did, and the fourth describes who Jesus is. There's also the entire Old Testament which describes who the Messiah is, and in all the gospels Jesus makes it clear he is the Messiah though his words and deeds. That's why he was crucified in Matthew, Mark and Luke, because they refused to believe he was their Messiah, because they had distanced themselves so much.



TwilightPrincess
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 30,084
Location: Hell

18 Jul 2022, 7:11 pm

klanka wrote:
The four gospels form an overarching story.

The first three contain miracles and teachings, john is the answer to the previous three.


My personal reading and research has led me to the conclusion that they are a collection of stories that were inspired by and, at times, contradict each other.


_________________
“Tú, que me lees, ¿estás seguro de entender mi lenguaje?” — Jorge Luis Borges


Matrix Glitch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Oct 2021
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,741
Location: US

18 Jul 2022, 7:20 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
Here I go again with Six Feet Under references, but I think it's relevant.

David is a gay Christian who becomes deacon of his Episcopal church.

The following is a very well-written montage of his experience coming out to family and to his parish:



Why do you think it is that in most cultures around the world throughout recorded history, most people have been uncomfortable with acts of homosexuality?



TwilightPrincess
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 30,084
Location: Hell

18 Jul 2022, 7:30 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
Here I go again with Six Feet Under references, but I think it's relevant.

David is a gay Christian who becomes deacon of his Episcopal church.

The following is a very well-written montage of his experience coming out to family and to his parish:



Why do you think it is that in most cultures around the world throughout recorded history, most people have been uncomfortable with acts of homosexuality?


I'm uncertain of the veracity of that statement, but if true, it could be due to {redacted} individuals like yourself.


_________________
“Tú, que me lees, ¿estás seguro de entender mi lenguaje?” — Jorge Luis Borges


Last edited by Cornflake on 19 Jul 2022, 8:05 am, edited 2 times in total.: Redacted a personal attack

Matrix Glitch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Oct 2021
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,741
Location: US

18 Jul 2022, 7:31 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
The reality, not surprisingly, is that many have been driven to suicide due to these homophobic beliefs in religious communities (which explains my general problem with this thread and the dogma contained in it).

“Based on data from more than 21,000 U.S. college students, researchers found that greater religious feeling and engagement was tied to increased risk of suicidal thoughts and actions for participants who identified as LGBQ.

Among lesbians and gays who said religion was not important to them, there was no association between sexual orientation and recent suicide attempts. But being homosexual did significantly increase the likelihood of recent suicide attempts in people who said that religion was very important to them.“

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN1HK2MA

Homophobic beliefs and doctrines can and do make fervent LGBTQ+ believers think that God will never accept them for being who they are, which is understandable if they were indoctrinated with these beliefs.

I follow a Spanish podcast that generally talks about the problems with suicide among LGBTQ+ members of my former homophobic religious community. It’s a serious problem that impacts a lot of people.

And don’t say that they can choose to remain celibate. People are, generally, social creatures who deserve loving and fulfilling relationships.

Any decent religious community should bring love, not despair, but maybe that’s me being too idealistic.


I'm sure you'll find the suicide rate is astronomically higher among all those who don't follow Christ the way he said to follow him, than it is among those who do. And that is also true of drug addition, alcoholism, STDs, crime etc.



TwilightPrincess
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Sep 2016
Age: 40
Gender: Female
Posts: 30,084
Location: Hell

18 Jul 2022, 7:34 pm

Matrix Glitch wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
The reality, not surprisingly, is that many have been driven to suicide due to these homophobic beliefs in religious communities (which explains my general problem with this thread and the dogma contained in it).

“Based on data from more than 21,000 U.S. college students, researchers found that greater religious feeling and engagement was tied to increased risk of suicidal thoughts and actions for participants who identified as LGBQ.

Among lesbians and gays who said religion was not important to them, there was no association between sexual orientation and recent suicide attempts. But being homosexual did significantly increase the likelihood of recent suicide attempts in people who said that religion was very important to them.“

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-heal ... SKBN1HK2MA

Homophobic beliefs and doctrines can and do make fervent LGBTQ+ believers think that God will never accept them for being who they are, which is understandable if they were indoctrinated with these beliefs.

I follow a Spanish podcast that generally talks about the problems with suicide among LGBTQ+ members of my former homophobic religious community. It’s a serious problem that impacts a lot of people.

And don’t say that they can choose to remain celibate. People are, generally, social creatures who deserve loving and fulfilling relationships.

Any decent religious community should bring love, not despair, but maybe that’s me being too idealistic.


I'm sure you'll find the suicide rate is astronomically higher among all those who don't follow Christ the way he said to follow him, than it is among those who do. And that is also true of drug addition, alcoholism, STDs, crime etc.


If you actually read the study, which you obviously haven't, you would see that the suicide rate was not elevated among the nonreligious LGBQ college students.


_________________
“Tú, que me lees, ¿estás seguro de entender mi lenguaje?” — Jorge Luis Borges