How do you feel about antinatalism?

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MSBKyle
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18 Apr 2020, 2:30 pm

I can't speak for anyone else, but for me personally, I don't see any good reasons to bring another human being into this world. If you look around, there is a lot of suffering everywhere especially now during this pandemic. Right now in the United States, over 17 million people are unemployed and many of them have to stand in long lines at food banks. Others don't know where their next meal is coming from. Aside from this pandemic which is only temporary, there is poverty, people living paycheck to paycheck, homelessness, people with disabilities, mental illness, anxiety, depression, and suicide. They say that not procreating is good for the environment. With people in quarantine all around the world, pollution is down and wild animals are coming out and roaming freely on the streets. By not having a child, you are reducing your carbon footprint by 9,000 tons. I can't tell anyone what to do, but I don't understand why having kids would even be a thought given all the problems in the world. Anything bad can happen. Anything can go wrong. There are no guarantees that your child will live a happy, healthy, successful, problem-free life. Even if your child does live a mostly good life, he or she still has to play the life game by growing up, having to go to school, get a job, pay bills and taxes, get old, and die.



old_comedywriter
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18 Apr 2020, 2:48 pm

As someone who raised three stepdaughters and one granddaughter, I agree somewhat. However, this should not be an absolute. My only advice: Don't have children for the wrong reasons. They're not born to support you. They're not born to fulfill some ancient religious obligation. They are born to make the world better and advance humanity, one generation at a time.


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18 Apr 2020, 2:52 pm

MSBKyle wrote:
How do you feel about antinatalism?
Back in the day, we did not use the term "anti-natalism"; we used the term "Child-Hater" instead.  Back then, it did not matter why someone -- man or woman -- might choose to have no children.  The fact that they did not want children meant that they hated children, plain and simple.

I understand your reasoning, and I even approve of both the process and the conclusion.  My only concern is that you might be perceived by some as a modern-day "Child-Hater", and be rounded up along with the "usual suspects" whenever a child goes missing or is found murdered.

Advice: Do not express your opinion about bringing children into the world in public, especially around people who already have children and those who want to eventually have children.  Otherwise, you may find your social situation to be more curtailed than it already is.



MSBKyle
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18 Apr 2020, 3:16 pm

Fnord wrote:
MSBKyle wrote:
How do you feel about antinatalism?
Back in the day, we did not use the term "anti-natalism"; we used the term "Child-Hater" instead.  Back then, it did not matter why someone -- man or woman -- might choose to have no children.  The fact that they did not want children meant that they hated children, plain and simple.

I understand your reasoning, and I even approve of both the process and the conclusion.  My only concern is that you might be perceived by some as a modern-day "Child-Hater", and be rounded up along with the "usual suspects" whenever a child goes missing or is found murdered.

Advice: Do not express your opinion about bringing children into the world in public, especially around people who already have children and those who want to eventually have children.  Otherwise, you may find your social situation to be more curtailed than it already is.


I see what you are saying. It is assumed that anyone who does not want children is a child hater. I do not hate children at all. My reasoning for not having children is to prevent them from experiencing any kind of suffering. I don't judge or scold anyone who has children. I can't tell anyone what to do. People are always going to have kids regardless of the state of the world. I get that. I just wish that people would consider the child and what kind of a world they would be bringing them into before they decide to have them. People only have kids for their own sake and not for the sake of the child. If the desire for children ever came for me, I would adopt before I would ever make my own children.



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18 Apr 2020, 3:25 pm

Gosh I don't know where Fnord lives, but I'm in the UK and a lot of people I know don't have children. Only one person in our office of 8 people has kids, although we do span across the age spectrum of the 21 year old intern to bosses in their 50s, so some of the younguns may have children in time. The one with kids certainly doesn't view the rest of us as child haters. I have cousins that don't have children and have no intention of having any. My aunts and uncles accept it as their choice.

I think amongst us Millenials (who are heading for middle age now) it's pretty common to not have children and not something at all unusual.

I don't want children for many reasons the op has listed. I actually like children, but I didn't enjoy growing up and I don't want to foist that horrible experience onto another generation.



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18 Apr 2020, 4:16 pm

Did you notice that part where I said, "Back in the day..."?

"The Day" was the 1960s and 1970s.  "The Place" was the American Midwest (Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Ohio, and Wisconsin).  The kind of place and time to which our Great Leader wants to return in order to Make America Great Again.  A place and time when Motherhood was (allegedly) sacred, and children were (publicly) counted as blessings -- the more children you had, the more "blessed" you were.  The reverse was also true; you were counted as "cursed" if you were married and could not (or would not) have children.

Paradoxically, single moms were considered a "curse", even while their illegitimate children were considered "blessings" (to the children's grandparents, anyway).  The single mom might be blamed and shamed for her state, but her children would (usually) receive some love from the mom's relatives.

Disclaimer: The foregoing was not valid everywhere and all of the time, and a person's wealth had a lot to do with lessening the curse of being childless.  But it would have been a safe assumption to make ... back in the day.



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18 Apr 2020, 4:20 pm

I also have nothing against children or people who choose to have children, but choose not to have any myself. First off I'd need to find a partner, even if I chose to adopt (which I probably would),because there is absolutely no way I could handle being a single mother. Then there's also all the reasons that have already been mentioned, and a long list of reasons why I would make a terrible mother (some of which I could improve on and some I couldn't).


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18 Apr 2020, 4:32 pm

I also don't think being a mom is for everyone but like Fnord said i try to keep my opinion to myself. Almost everyone around me is obsessed with marriage and having children :?



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19 Apr 2020, 8:41 am

Antinatalism makes me think of the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement aka VHEMT which I agree with. I do think that humanity has the potential to do a lot of good but we have a hell of aLOT of growing up to do as a species to get to that point. The earth can only support so many of us & we need to start working together to save our planet instead of fighting each other & building weapons that can destroy it.
I never had any desire for kids myself but that's mostly for other reasons. I didn't like other kids when I was a kid but I didn't really like adults either thou. I'm uncomfortable around kids & around adults. I also have a lot of various issues I'm dealing with that would make me a horrible parent. I find pets to be a lot of work sometimes & I'm not that good at stepping up & doing that work sometimes.


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19 Apr 2020, 11:31 am

Even when I was a kid I was more comfortable around adults than other kids. And I loved older people. Even now when people go on about how senior citizens are all horrible and a burden I hate it.

But kids! Blech! :eew: I know nearly all adults find them annoying and gross occasionally, but they don't have to be acting that way to make me uneasy. They just have to be in the same building I'm in. Children are too unpredictable.
So the less they're around the better. There seem to be less kids at the stores since the pandemic. Good. Kids are always touching things, running around without looking where they're going until they crash right into someone else, they think germs don't exist, they think proper hygiene is useless and stupid, and they never listen. If and when the restrictions are lowered, I'm going to have to put up with that all over again sand just thinking about it makes by blood run cold.

But yes, society thinks that adults who dislike children are all evil and like Miss Trunchbull from Mathilda. Because you always believe what you see in movies and fictional books. :roll:



Callafiriel
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19 Apr 2020, 12:05 pm

MSBKyle wrote:
There are no guarantees that your child will live a happy, healthy, successful, problem-free life. Even if your child does live a mostly good life, he or she still has to play the life game by growing up, having to go to school, get a job, pay bills and taxes, get old, and die.


There are never any guarantees. Why should it be different for having kids?

I think anti-natalism is just an excuse for not wanting to say: I don't want kids. Instead you find a "moral reason": having kids is bad for the planet, they might end up sick or poor or with a lot of problems. The problem is that our society claims that people are bad if they don't want kids. It's the selfish choice, blabla. So people make up all kinds of reasons not to have kids.

And that's also the reason why I think more people should say it out loud that they don't want kids. It should be normal that having kids or not having any - both are valid choices and one in itself one is not worse than the other. There are enough people who have children, who want to have children, humanity won't die out because some people don't want to be parents.

Myself, I never wanted kids. I told everyone I would never have a kid when I was 8. They told me that would change, the biological clock, blabla, I'd want children once I meet the right guy. I have met the right guy. Like me he doesn't want kids. Thanks to endometriosis I am past the point where I could have any anyway. And I have never regretted not having kids.

That doesn't mean I hate kids. It just means I do not want to go through pregnancy, childbirth and caring for a child 24/7.

I also don't think that no one should want kids. Everyone is entitled to make their own decision about how to lead their life. There are a lot of people who love having kids. Let them have them.

But let those of us who don't feel the parental urge be happily childfree.



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19 Apr 2020, 2:52 pm

Callafiriel wrote:
The problem is that our society claims that people are bad if they don't want kids. It's the selfish choice, blabla. So people make up all kinds of reasons not to have kids.
It's the opposite for people who are majorly disabled. Disableds get thought of as selfish for wanting kids cuz they could pass their disabilities on. Society also thinks that people who are on various benefits have kids so they can get bigger government checks. Does anyone remember The Octomom controversy. Since I'm disabled there was never any pressure from my family or by society for me to have kids.


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MSBKyle
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21 Apr 2020, 1:51 pm

Callafiriel wrote:
MSBKyle wrote:
There are no guarantees that your child will live a happy, healthy, successful, problem-free life. Even if your child does live a mostly good life, he or she still has to play the life game by growing up, having to go to school, get a job, pay bills and taxes, get old, and die.


There are never any guarantees. Why should it be different for having kids?

I think anti-natalism is just an excuse for not wanting to say: I don't want kids. Instead you find a "moral reason": having kids is bad for the planet, they might end up sick or poor or with a lot of problems. The problem is that our society claims that people are bad if they don't want kids. It's the selfish choice, blabla. So people make up all kinds of reasons not to have kids.

And that's also the reason why I think more people should say it out loud that they don't want kids. It should be normal that having kids or not having any - both are valid choices and one in itself one is not worse than the other. There are enough people who have children, who want to have children, humanity won't die out because some people don't want to be parents.

Myself, I never wanted kids. I told everyone I would never have a kid when I was 8. They told me that would change, the biological clock, blabla, I'd want children once I meet the right guy. I have met the right guy. Like me he doesn't want kids. Thanks to endometriosis I am past the point where I could have any anyway. And I have never regretted not having kids.

That doesn't mean I hate kids. It just means I do not want to go through pregnancy, childbirth and caring for a child 24/7.

I also don't think that no one should want kids. Everyone is entitled to make their own decision about how to lead their life. There are a lot of people who love having kids. Let them have them.

But let those of us who don't feel the parental urge be happily childfree.


Having kids or not having kids is a personal choice. I can't tell anyone what to do. I think that people who are thinking about having kids should ask consider the morality of having kids. They should be thinking about the environment and any potential suffering or problems they may experience throughout their life. A lot of people have kids for the wrong reasons. They may have kids because their parents want grandchildren, they might see all their friends and peers having babies so they feel that they should too, they want someone who will take care of them in old age, or they might wan to see how much they can get from the government. Society tells women that her main purpose is to pop out babies. Society tells women that they are supposed to want to have babies. Many women still don't realize that having kids is a choice. I don't scold or judge anyone who has kids, but I think people who have a ridiculously large number of kids and who constantly pop out babies like there is no tomorrow should be called out. People like the Duggars who have 19 children should be called out.



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22 Apr 2020, 9:10 am

MSBKyle wrote:
Having kids or not having kids is a personal choice. I can't tell anyone what to do. I think that people who are thinking about having kids should ask consider the morality of having kids. They should be thinking about the environment and any potential suffering or problems they may experience throughout their life. A lot of people have kids for the wrong reasons. They may have kids because their parents want grandchildren, they might see all their friends and peers having babies so they feel that they should too, they want someone who will take care of them in old age, or they might wan to see how much they can get from the government. Society tells women that her main purpose is to pop out babies. Society tells women that they are supposed to want to have babies. Many women still don't realize that having kids is a choice. I don't scold or judge anyone who has kids, but I think people who have a ridiculously large number of kids and who constantly pop out babies like there is no tomorrow should be called out. People like the Duggars who have 19 children should be called out.
I'm from the deep south & more than a few people have kids there cuz they don't believe in &/or don't know much about birth control. They're pushed abstinence only & they have sex anyway or they marry young & pregnancies happen before they were wanting kids.


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22 Apr 2020, 6:41 pm

What the OP is describing is a desire to have not have kids. Not "antinatalism". Not the same thing.