Interesting things about your language
All in all, my linguistics teach told that much of the reason why languages change is often due to human laziness. I mean, if you compare latin and french, it's obvious that french is much clearer (as in, makes sense, unlike latin, which can be in ANY S,V,O order you want), and it's shorter to pronounce. However, cutting in stuff to pronounce means you need to memorize additionnal stuff in order to know the sense of what you're talking about. :p
This is somewhat true with Quebec's french, where we often use english words in our familiar conversations. :p Here's an example! "Vas-tu t'la fermer, ou faut-tu que j'te mettes du tape su' la bouche?" (Also note that the "verb-pronoun" is used mostly with "tu" or "il" (which becomes "y") which forces a yes / no answer . You could use "je", but that'd be asking yourself a question, and thus hardly counts ) :p
(for those wondering, a rough translation is : "Will you shut up, or do i have to put tape on your mouth?")
One particularily funny thing is that declarative sentences (not questions!) can rarely begin with the verb – except in jokes.
Inversion gives you a lot of opportunity to make your writing more interesting or to stress something without relying on additional words (in writing) or intonation (in speech). It's something I like about German - when I'm writing in another language and can't use it, I really get frustrated sometimes.
I like our inversion too. Thanks to cases and genders, we can put the words almost in random order and they still mean the same.
Just a few examples:
ziehen → to pull, to draw
abziehen → to detract
vorziehen → to prefer
aufziehen → to draw open
zuziehen → to draw tight, to move in
einziehen → to move in
beziehen → to draw (e.g. benefits), to put (pillowslips/sheets) on
And these are all seperate words that should not be mixed!
It's really fascinating. My example in Polish:
iść → to go, to walk
dojść → to arrive, to reach a destination, to get (into power), to come (to conclusion), to have an orgasm
najść → to come over, to overlap
obejść → to go around, to bypass
odejść → to go away, to leave
podejść → to approach, to come up to, to trick somebody
pójść → to go somewhere
przejść → to go through, to pass, to cross, to convert, to transform, to permeate
przyjść → to come
rozejść → to disperse, to dismiss, to break up
ujść → to escape, to get away with something, to flow into (river into sea)
wejść → to enter
wyjść → to go out, to leave, to come out
zajść → to set (sun, moon), to occur, to go somewhere, to reach, to become pregnant
zejść → to go down, to dismount, to come off
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When using pronouns in Japanese, it's useful to think of pronouns as being not just pronouns, but also as titles. This is why a speaker has to choose which pronouns to use, or make a point of avoiding them, when communicating in the language.
This may well hold true for many or all of the East Asian languages. I know it's a useful mindset for Japanese and Korean.
In italian the pronunce of 'gli' can be tricky. Somethimes it is phonetic, othertimes no.
When i started to study norwegian i understood that my language is not as phonetic as i though
For example the word 'Cielo' must be read 'Chelo' and not 'Chielo'
And there are not symbols that show how to pronunce correctly letters like S, Z, E, I, O, U
My first language is pretty easy to learn for english speakers, but the letter R is difficult to pronunce.
A characteristic of my language is also in verbs.
In englis, and in amny other languages, you have to say, for example
I go
You go
he/she/it goes etc...
In italian is not necessary to say
Io vado
tu vai
lui/lei va
but only
vado
vai
va
andiamo
andate
vanno
because all verbs are different for people
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- Sorry for bad english (and bad norwegian), I'm italian -
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Let's compare languages and look at the word order in subphrases:
1. English: The man is ill - I say that the man is ill. No change of the word order in English.
2. Esperanto: La viro estas malsana - Mi diras ke la viro estas malsana. No change, same as in English.
3. Dutch: De man is ziek - Ik zeg dat de man ziek is. Change of word order in Dutch.
4. German: Der Mann ist krank. Ich sage, dass der Mann krank ist. The same as in Dutch.
5. Afrikaans: Die man is siek - Ek sê, dat die man siek is. The same as in German and Dutch.
But in subphrases the word order in German is stricter than in Dutch.
1. Dutch:
- Ik zeg dat ik heb gewerkt;
- Ik zeg dat ik gewerkt heb.
Both phrases are allowed. They both mean: I say I worked.
2. German:
- *Ich sage dass ich habe gearbeitet;
- Ich sage dass ich gearbeitet habe.
AFAIK, only the second German phrase is correct.
Whether you are free to play with the word order depends of the meaning of the participle:
1. Ik zeg dat hij is gestoord = I say that he has been disturbed (by someone);
2. Ik zeg dat hij gestoord is. This has two meanings: I say that he has been disturbed (by someone), and: I say that he is mentally challenged (having a disorder), but it is somewhat insulting.
1. English: The man is ill - I say that the man is ill. No change of the word order in English.
2. Esperanto: La viro estas malsana - Mi diras ke la viro estas malsana. No change, same as in English.
3. Dutch: De man is ziek - Ik zeg dat de man ziek is. Change of word order in Dutch.
4. German: Der Mann ist krank. Ich sage, dass der Mann krank ist. The same as in Dutch.
5. Afrikaans: Die man is siek - Ek sê, dat die man siek is. The same as in German and Dutch.
But in subphrases the word order in German is stricter than in Dutch.
1. Dutch:
- Ik zeg dat ik heb gewerkt;
- Ik zeg dat ik gewerkt heb.
Both phrases are allowed. They both mean: I say I worked.
2. German:
- *Ich sage dass ich habe gearbeitet;
- Ich sage dass ich gearbeitet habe.
AFAIK, only the second German phrase is correct.
Whether you are free to play with the word order depends of the meaning of the participle:
1. Ik zeg dat hij is gestoord = I say that he has been disturbed (by someone);
2. Ik zeg dat hij gestoord is. This has two meanings: I say that he has been disturbed (by someone), and: I say that he is mentally challenged (having a disorder), but it is somewhat insulting.
In Portuguese, you can leave out the subject in the second sentence:
O homem esta mal. Digo que esta mal.
Though if you wouldn't, it would be the same as in Esperanto and English.
I've studied Mandarin Chinese and found there to be some funny things in that particular language. For example, if you do something for a short time, you repeat the verb. For example, chi means "to eat," If you say chichi you mean "eat for a short while," akin to the Dutch "even."
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My mother tongue, Spanish, is supposed to follow the usual Romance SVO pattern, but a nice thing (that I suspect was borrowed from the Arabs when they conquered Spain for 8 centuries) is that many sentences can begin with the verb, or even with the object:
Ayer vino la policía = The police came yesterday, (lit. "Yesterday came the police").
A mí me llamó el profesor, pero a ti nadie = The teacher called me, but nobody called you, (lit. "To me to me called the teacher, but to you nobody").
Esto me lo dijo él = It was he who told me this, (lit. "This to me this said he").
Se te dieron instrucciones = You were given instructions, (lit. "<impersonal pronoun> to you gave instructions").
Me gusta que vayas tú y no él = I prefer you, not him, to go, (lit. "To me pleases that go you and not he").
Dice tu padre que se le perdió el libro que le prestó tu esposo = Your father says the book your husband lent him got lost, (lit. "Says your father that <impersonal pronoun> from him lost the book that to him lent your husband").
Also, some words can be omitted when there's a previous reference:
Me gusta más el gato pardo que el gris = I like the brown cat better than the gray one, (lit. "To me pleases more the cat brown than the gray").
Yo corrí, pero él no = I ran, but he didn't, (lit. "I ran, but he not").
And you may already know that double negation is mandatory in Spanish. It's totally legit to say Nadie fue ("Nobody went") and Nunca lo veremos ("We'll never see it"), but if you prefer to put the verb first, you MUST say No fue nadie and No lo veremos nunca.
We really do that a lot. For example:
Taschenmesser
(pocketknife, derived from "Tasche" and "Messer")
Wahlpflichtfach
(a subject that can, but need not be chosen, as long as another suitable subject is taken in that case. derived from "Wahlpflicht" und "Fach". "Wahlpflicht" itself is a compound word made of "Wahl" and "Pflicht".)
Wasserstoff
(hydrogen, derived from "Wasser" and "Stoff". Many other chemical elements are named likewise, For example "Sauerstoff", oxygen, from "Säure".)
Many of our compound words are used as a true unit and people do not even consider them as compounded anymore. In some cases they will not even be able to identify the original words without a bit of thinking.
This is only a written feature. When spoken, it doesn't matter how many words are there.
In French, le petit chien (the little dog) could as well be written le petitchien, the spoken language would still behave the same way.
Sometimes I come accross words with no exact translation in English, here are some of those.
Troué: With holes in it. Un pantalon troué - trousers with holes in it.
En travaux - renovation, construction, all kind of public work taking place
à la : l'homme à la cigarette - the man with a cigarette. But it means the the man is not just with a cigarette, he is also smoking it, it more accurate.
déplacer - to displace but you nearly never use this word in english butI find it very handy.
Déménager, emménager - to move house, to settle in a new house.
the complements "en" and "y" - J'en prend note : I take note about it.
J'y serai - I will be there
They stand for something which have been stated before. I find them powerfull to use.
^ That's what happens when a germanic language (Frankish) meets Latin, you get French over a couple o' years. :p Musn't help that the British took about what, 29% of french words over time? Including Old french words that we stopped using? Like "toast"?
And yeah, in french, what's important is what you say and the order (kind of), not how you say it because the meaning resides in the words themselves, so even with a few mistakes (pronouncing the "t"'s at the end of the -ent or the like, unless it's on an adjective where the female gender could be applied), we can still pretty much understand what you're trying to say. ^.- Otherwise, we'll just laugh at you. And maybe try to help you out by pointing out your mistakes (with as much respect as can be given. )
When i started to study norwegian i understood that my language is not as phonetic as i though
For example the word 'Cielo' must be read 'Chelo' and not 'Chielo'
And there are not symbols that show how to pronunce correctly letters like S, Z, E, I, O, U
My first language is pretty easy to learn for english speakers, but the letter R is difficult to pronunce.
A characteristic of my language is also in verbs.
In englis, and in amny other languages, you have to say, for example
I go
You go
he/she/it goes etc...
In italian is not necessary to say
Io vado
tu vai
lui/lei va
but only
vado
vai
va
andiamo
andate
vanno
because all verbs are different for people
I didn't know (which is no surprise given that I don't really know Italian) that in Italian, the Spanish etymologically equivalent verbs "Ir" (to go) and "andar" (to go about) overlapped. Does that mean that they are not verbs by themselves?
What I found curious is that in Spanish the verb conjugation for "andar" /ahnDAHR/ in some cases can be used instead of the one for "ir" /eer/.
For example the imperative form for the 2nd person "vos" /vohs/ (you) can be "andá" /ahnDAH/ instead of the nonsensical "i" /ee/ (given that the conjugation for "vos" is directly related to the one for "vosotros" /vohSOHtrohs/, imperative of which is "id" /eed/ thus the imperative of "vos" should be "i" /ee/ but that is just nonsense).
Well I digressed, what I was going for is if those examples you gave:
vai
va
andiamo
andate
vanno
are like that because of overlapping or because they are not verbs by themselves as in Spanish? or were they ever?
BTW I know that the Italian sound -gli- is the same as the -ll- in Spanish and sometimes it can be tricky to pronounce. Do you have any example in Italian, where it is trickier to pronounce the -gli-
In Spanish it is most complicated when it follows an -i- like in "pollito" (chick-let), its like the -ll- kind of clashes with the -i- it follows which is no surprise since, if I may do an analogy, the Italian -gn- sound is to a really really fast -nyy- followed by a vowel (like a much faster version of the English word Canyon), what the -gli- sound is to a really really fast -lyy- (I have no example here).
But it is obviously trickier when it follows an -i- since that would mean a really really fast -lyyi- all in a fluid syllable with single motion where only two sounds ought to be identifiable, the single consonant and the single vowel.
Talking about the order or sentences, in Spanish I love you can be expressed as
[1]<<(yo) te amo>>
[2]<<te amo (yo)>>
[3]<<(yo) ámote>>
[4]<<ámote (yo)>>
All four forms express the same but [2] and [4] happen to coincide with how a question is technically to be arranged but the tone is what really would make it a question.
In a sort of speak [2]<<?te amo yo?>> and [4]<<?ámote yo?>> are much more of a question than [1]<<?(yo) te amo?>> and [3]<<?(yo) ámote?>>
[3] and [4] - When the personal pronoun "te" gets postponed to the verb it becomes an enclitic, meaning that it becomes one with the verb,
so "ámote" (never "amo te") means I love you, in a single word
They are not all used in equal proportions but they are all correct.
Now if one wanted to be even more emphatic, I love you could be phrased as << Yo te amo a tí >> (I thee love to thou)
And that could be arranged as
[1] Yo te amo a ti / Yo ámote a ti (I thee love to thou / I love-thee to thou)
[2] Yo a ti te amo / Yo a ti ámote (I to thou thee love / I to thou love-thee)
[3] A ti yo te amo / A ti yo ámote (to thou I thee love / to thou I love-thee)
[4] Te amo yo a ti / Ámote yo a ti (thee love I to thou / love-thee I to thou)
[5] A ti te amo yo / A ti ámote yo (to thou thee love I / to thou love-thee I)
(I thought it would be easier to understand if I used thou and thee, instead of you and you)
Now some personal subjective opinions of mine:
[1] sounds more emphatic
I could only translate the feeling as: It is me who loves you
[2] not only to me sound more emphatic but more romantic, kind of like the mere arrangement of the words clicked in to a formula filled with true meaningfulness - -
I could only translate the feeling as: It is you who I love
[3] Same as the second one but it also appears to have a sense of remind-full-ness to it, almost as if the person being loved needed an emotional encouragement
I could only translate the feeling as: It's you!, who I love
[4] this is the arrangement for a question but like I posted above it is really the tone what makes a question but in my opinion this arrangement not only pops as a question, with lack of question marks and all but it also seems to be embedded with an inherit doubtful questioning.
I could only translate the feeling as: Me!, love you?
[5]This one is also technically the arrangement for a question but this one kind of sounds like a reminding order
I could only translate the feeling as: You are loved only by me
Last edited by HairlessAlbinoCat on 08 Apr 2012, 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
And that could be arranged as
[1] Yo te amo a ti / Yo ámote a ti (I thee love to thou / I love-thee to thou)
[2] Yo a ti te amo / Yo a ti ámote (I to thou thee love / I to thou love-thee)
[3] A ti yo te amo / A ti yo ámote (to thou I thee love / to thou I love-thee)
[4] Te amo yo a ti / Ámote yo a ti (thee love I to thou / love-thee I to thou)
[5] A ti te amo yo / A ti ámote yo (to thou thee love I / to thou love-thee I)
(I thought it would be easier to understand if I used thou and thee, instead of you and you)
Now some personal subjective opinions of mine:
[1] sounds more emphatic
I could only translate the feeling as: It is me who loves you
[2] not only to me sound more emphatic but more romantic, kind of like the mere arrangement of the words clicked in to a formula filled with true meaningfulness - -
I could only translate the feeling as: It is you who I love
[3] Same as the second one but it also appears to have a sense of remind-full-ness to it, almost as if the person being loved needed an emotional encouragement
I could only translate the feeling as: It's you!, who I love
[4] this is the arrangement for a question but like I posted above it is really the tone what makes a question but in my opinion this arrangement not only pops as a question, with lack of question marks and all but it also seems to be embedded with an inherit doubtful questioning.
I could only translate the feeling as: Me!, love you?
[5]This one is also technically the arrangement for a question but this one kind of sounds like a reminding order
I could only translate the feeling as: You are loved only by me
For The Sake Of Holy Mothertrucking Tom Cruise, I know what they are.
The 1st one is inherently an assertion
The 2nd one is inherently a rhetoric statement
The 3rd one is inherently a reassertion
The 4th one is inherently a question
The 5th one is inherently a rhetoric question
Then depending on the stressed word The meaning may change.
Or so I think but I am pretty sure
FTSOHMTC, this is so exiting, I LOVE grammar
And that could be arranged as
[1] Yo te amo a ti / Yo ámote a ti (I thee love to thou / I love-thee to thou)
[2] Yo a ti te amo / Yo a ti ámote (I to thou thee love / I to thou love-thee)
[3] A ti yo te amo / A ti yo ámote (to thou I thee love / to thou I love-thee)
[4] Te amo yo a ti / Ámote yo a ti (thee love I to thou / love-thee I to thou)
[5] A ti te amo yo / A ti ámote yo (to thou thee love I / to thou love-thee I)
(I thought it would be easier to understand if I used thou and thee, instead of you and you)
Now some personal subjective opinions of mine:
[1] sounds more emphatic
I could only translate the feeling as: It is me who loves you
[2] not only to me sound more emphatic but more romantic, kind of like the mere arrangement of the words clicked in to a formula filled with true meaningfulness - -
I could only translate the feeling as: It is you who I love
[3] Same as the second one but it also appears to have a sense of remind-full-ness to it, almost as if the person being loved needed an emotional encouragement
I could only translate the feeling as: It's you!, who I love
[4] this is the arrangement for a question but like I posted above it is really the tone what makes a question but in my opinion this arrangement not only pops as a question, with lack of question marks and all but it also seems to be embedded with an inherit doubtful questioning.
I could only translate the feeling as: Me!, love you?
[5]This one is also technically the arrangement for a question but this one kind of sounds like a reminding order
I could only translate the feeling as: You are loved only by me
For The Sake Of Holy Mothertrucking Tom Cruise, I know what they are.
The 1st one is inherently an assertion
The 2nd one is inherently a rhetoric statement
The 3rd one is inherently a reassertion
The 4th one is inherently a question
The 5th one is inherently a rhetoric question
Then depending on the stressed word The meaning may change.
Or so I think but I am pretty sure
FTSOHMTC, this is so exiting, I LOVE grammar
FTSOHMTC, this is getting more and more weird, I've been doing an experiment stressing all the different words in each of the five sentences and every single time the sentence sounds to be what I thought they are
The 2nd one is inherently a rhetoric statement
The 3rd one is inherently a reassertion
The 4th one is inherently a question
The 5th one is inherently a rhetoric question
The impression might get a little diffuse but it is always clear, specially when the word that ought to be stressed by default naturally in Spanish AKA the last one is allowed to take its place.
Where I live there is a saying to remind people that the last word is the one to be stressed: "El burro por delante" (The ass goes first) meaning that the last thing you stress, enumerate or mention is the most important in order to speak harmoniously, grammar-wise.
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I am getting chills (This remark is both geeky and so Aspie), I mean who giggles because they love grammar?
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