Which language do you like most/is the most fascinating?

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Raziel
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29 Nov 2013, 5:56 am

CyclopsSummers wrote:
However -and this ties into what you touched upon earlier, how English has become the sole leading language of both international trade and the academia- nowadays, interest in German and French has begun to wane among Dutch students, as they see more benefits in just learning English. I went to a secondary school that had stopped French lessons altogether, so I've had to teach myself French at a later age.


That's very sad to hear that they don't consider other languages than English as not so important anymore. :(
Because languages are not just there for comunication, but also open up a totally different world and if you want to understand another culture you always have to understand their native language. Also there is a difference in talking to ppl in a foreign language or to be able to communicate to them in their own native language.

I think it's a bit "extreme" in my family but I grew up with different cultures even in my own family from very early on...
My grandma is from France (but went to Germany when she was a child), my Grandpa has ancesters from the Czech Republic and so far I know I've also ancesters from Poland and Russia, but with Poland I don't know for sure.
The step-father of my grandma was from Luxenbourg. She, my aunt and cousin lived in South Africa and Simbabwe and my aunt and cousin still live there, he married a wife there and his son even doesn't speak German.
My fathers cousin lives in GB and is married there and has 3 children, again her youngest son doesn't speak much German.
Another one of my fathers cousins live in Spain now, they moved a view years ago.
My aunt and one of her sons moved to the US a view years ago.
One of my other aunts is married to a Vietnamese and also as a child I went to Vietnamese celebrations and so on, so I grew up knowing some basics about that culture.
We grew up close to the French border and my parents even wanted to move to France when I was little, but decided differently because I couldn't talk at that time and they thought I wouldn't be able to learn another language. 8O
:cry:

... oh yes my best childhood friend is Greek and I was over there soooo often that I even could understand some basics. But sadly I've never learned it. Also some of my friends are/were from different countries.

So I guess being in contract with all different languages and cultures is very normal for most Europeans, at least when you live in the city, not so much when you live on the country side.

What I read a fiew days ago and really liked:
“If you talk to a man in a language he understands, that goes to his head. If you talk to him in his language, that goes to his heart.” ― Nelson Mandela


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Thelibrarian
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29 Nov 2013, 8:14 am

CyclopsSummers wrote:
Librarian, one thing you have to consider is that Europe has never truly been a political or cultural unit, and that it's had a long history of states merging and splitting up again. To name a recent example, you were last in Europe in the 1980s; the map of Europe looked a lot different back then from what it looks like today. There was Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, and the Soviet Union on one hand, on the other hand Germany was split down the middle into the Bundesrepublik and the DDR. The aforementioned Eastern European former states had arguably all been conceived as umbrella states encompassing several peoples, though each for different reasons/motivations (though the Soviet Union was the heir to the legacy of the Russian Empire's territorial policies).

I think the situation really does vary by country here in Europe, though, and within those countries it varies by region. To take another example that's close to home for me, in the Netherlands, learning languages had traditionally been an important part of the students' curriculum. Especially the languages spoken by our neighbours, namely English, German, and French, had always been a staple of Dutch education. Why? Because the Netherlands are a small nation of traders, so it would be useful to us if we speak a mouthful of English, German, and French, which would potentially grant access to the markets of France, the UK, and the German-speaking nations, aside from giving our graduating scientists and researchers the opportunity to branch out beyond the area of the Dutch academic world.
However -and this ties into what you touched upon earlier, how English has become the sole leading language of both international trade and the academia- nowadays, interest in German and French has begun to wane among Dutch students, as they see more benefits in just learning English. I went to a secondary school that had stopped French lessons altogether, so I've had to teach myself French at a later age.

Tourists, foreign students, and expats are often pleased that many Dutch people can communicate fairly well in English, but I believe that Dutch proficiency in English is at its highest in the larger cities, while the smaller towns have a smaller amount of people who are comfortable speaking English. When I lived in Amsterdam, I had interactions with tourists every week (simply because there are always tourists asking for directions) and I worked at a factory where the lingua franca was English because many of my co-workers were Nigerian, Ghanaian, or Filipino (who were all Anglophones). On the streets of Amsterdam, similar to what Raziel said about Germany, you will hear Papiamento, Sranan, Arabic, and Turkish. At work, I've heard Filipino, Akan, Farsi, Urdu, Polish, and Czech. But now that I've moved to a smaller town in the south of the Netherlands, I'm one of few 'exotic' residents in town, and I mostly hear Dutch.

I also imagine that it differs per country in Europe: in Holland, Britain, France, Germany, Belgium, and Scandinavia, it seems that the larger cities have a relatively high percentage of exotic immigrants; partly because of colonial history, partly because of economic and political migration. Eastern European states, like the Slavic and Baltic countries, although culturally very diverse, seem to be a lot more monolithic in the ethnic make-up of their respective populations, even in the capital cities. I don't think Ljubljana, Riga, or Bucarest can be likened to Brussels or Stockholm, in that regard.

Tying into this on the other hand, is that in Western Europe there does seem to be a certain negative stereotype that's prevalent in the general consensus of the people when it comes to Eastern European countries, except when someone either personally knows someone from Eastern Europe, or has visited one or more Eastern countries. The ignorance displayed when it comes to Eastern Europe is quite baffling when you consider that Western Europeans supposedly have easier access to a thorough education. It's rare that you'll come across a Dutchman who knows that Croatia is mostly Catholic and Serbia Eastern Orthodox. Most do not know, and they do not care.


I'm aware of what has transpired in Europe since the eighties even if I haven't been back. In fact, the reason I got to see as much of Europe as I did was because I served in naval intelligence, and did my own miniscule part of bring down communism under Reagan. Considering I got to see the iron curtain up close and personal outside of Hamburg, I am glad I did. My AS made serving difficult, but seeing that barrier made it easier, as I thought it was an abomination.

Having said this, what hasn't changed is that, as you noted, Europe is composed of many nations, and sometimes these nations are located within other nations. This is why I personally don't care for transnational bodies such as the EU, and why I hope that these captive nations are given the opportunity for self-determination, even if I don't care to become involved in internal European politics.



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29 Nov 2013, 1:40 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
Having said this, what hasn't changed is that, as you noted, Europe is composed of many nations, and sometimes these nations are located within other nations. This is why I personally don't care for transnational bodies such as the EU, and why I hope that these captive nations are given the opportunity for self-determination, even if I don't care to become involved in internal European politics.


I don't think that the EU sees itself as a nation, but more as a "loose Union". The expression "Union" might be confusing since the USA uses a very similar expression, but there are many differences and how this is ment. Also in the EU nations can be added and also leave. That a nation left just happened once with Greenland.
I still think that the EU is for high importance for the nations within the EU, but I agree that it isn't really for high importance outside of the EU. Since the EU it is much more easyer to move from one country in the EU to another and also work there. I still remember the time were I had to show my passport every time I went to France. Now I usually don't have to when I'm comming from a country within the EU. Living in the EU is more flexible than it has been befor what is important, because all European countries are small compared to the USA, Russia or China for example. Also the countries within the EU are trying to come along with each other.

Nations within nations...
This is rare in Europe, but there are some examples: Greenland and the Faroe Islands are both officially part of Danmark, eventhough both have nowadays the right to govern themselfs.
Also the Vatican who is part of Rome, but offically it's kind of it's own nation.


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29 Nov 2013, 5:27 pm

Raziel wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Having said this, what hasn't changed is that, as you noted, Europe is composed of many nations, and sometimes these nations are located within other nations. This is why I personally don't care for transnational bodies such as the EU, and why I hope that these captive nations are given the opportunity for self-determination, even if I don't care to become involved in internal European politics.


I don't think that the EU sees itself as a nation, but more as a "loose Union". The expression "Union" might be confusing since the USA uses a very similar expression, but there are many differences and how this is ment. Also in the EU nations can be added and also leave. That a nation left just happened once with Greenland.
I still think that the EU is for high importance for the nations within the EU, but I agree that it isn't really for high importance outside of the EU. Since the EU it is much more easyer to move from one country in the EU to another and also work there. I still remember the time were I had to show my passport every time I went to France. Now I usually don't have to when I'm comming from a country within the EU. Living in the EU is more flexible than it has been befor what is important, because all European countries are small compared to the USA, Russia or China for example. Also the countries within the EU are trying to come along with each other.

Nations within nations...
This is rare in Europe, but there are some examples: Greenland and the Faroe Islands are both officially part of Danmark, eventhough both have nowadays the right to govern themselfs.
Also the Vatican who is part of Rome, but offically it's kind of it's own nation.


Raziel, my thesis is that any government that is granted both the power to tax and the power to raise an army will eventually seize all meaningful power. I know of no exceptions The US actually began as thirteen confederated states--independent powers--that formed a common federal government with explicitly prescribed, limited powers. Since that Constitution was written, that federal government has seized all meaningful power, with the states now serving as little more than conduits for federal power. We actually have our own cultural diversity over here, as evidenced by the so-called red state/blue state divide, which is becoming more divisive all the time. We now have a federal government that is in paralysis since both sides in this conflict are at cross-purposes. FWIW, taking advantage of this divide is how fascists have historically seized power, at least in the three cases where it has been successful.

The same thing has happened with the EU. Remember, it started out as BENELUX, then the European Coal and Steel Community. Since the creation of the EU proper, it has written a constitution of its own, subject to much controversy, that is ever amassing more power to itself. It's a very dangerous road to go down.

As far as nations within nations that are at least somewhat unhappy with current political arrangements, I am referring to the Flemish, Scots, Welsh, Bretons, Corsicans, northern Italians, Catalonians, Basques--and I could go on.....

The moral is that the closer government is to those it represents, the better it will work, as it is more likely to represent the interests of those it governs. This is just as true in Europe as it is in the US, as evidenced by an increasing disdain and mistrust of the EU by Europeans, especially the French and Germans, its erstwhile biggest supporters.



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29 Nov 2013, 6:03 pm

Thelibrarian wrote:
Raziel, my thesis is that any government that is granted both the power to tax and the power to raise an army will eventually seize all meaningful power. I know of no exceptions The US actually began as thirteen confederated states--independent powers--that formed a common federal government with explicitly prescribed, limited powers. Since that Constitution was written, that federal government has seized all meaningful power, with the states now serving as little more than conduits for federal power. We actually have our own cultural diversity over here, as evidenced by the so-called red state/blue state divide, which is becoming more divisive all the time. We now have a federal government that is in paralysis since both sides in this conflict are at cross-purposes. FWIW, taking advantage of this divide is how fascists have historically seized power, at least in the three cases where it has been successful.

The same thing has happened with the EU. Remember, it started out as BENELUX, then the European Coal and Steel Community. Since the creation of the EU proper, it has written a constitution of its own, subject to much controversy, that is ever amassing more power to itself. It's a very dangerous road to go down.

As far as nations within nations that are at least somewhat unhappy with current political arrangements, I am referring to the Flemish, Scots, Welsh, Bretons, Corsicans, northern Italians, Catalonians, Basques--and I could go on.....

The moral is that the closer government is to those it represents, the better it will work, as it is more likely to represent the interests of those it governs. This is just as true in Europe as it is in the US, as evidenced by an increasing disdain and mistrust of the EU by Europeans, especially the French and Germans, its erstwhile biggest supporters.


And now?
Split up and just being tiny subgroups that are in constant conflict with each other?
*slightly rethorical question*
You could also call that a very dangerous road to go down...
I don't believe that Europe will ever be one country one day.

Also not all Unions led to Nations. The Skandinavian countries even had hundrets of years ago their first unions and still managed to keep their independence.


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29 Nov 2013, 7:37 pm

I love the Chinese language. It's so musical and with funny whines in it. I love it.



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29 Nov 2013, 7:44 pm

Raziel wrote:
Thelibrarian wrote:
Raziel, my thesis is that any government that is granted both the power to tax and the power to raise an army will eventually seize all meaningful power. I know of no exceptions The US actually began as thirteen confederated states--independent powers--that formed a common federal government with explicitly prescribed, limited powers. Since that Constitution was written, that federal government has seized all meaningful power, with the states now serving as little more than conduits for federal power. We actually have our own cultural diversity over here, as evidenced by the so-called red state/blue state divide, which is becoming more divisive all the time. We now have a federal government that is in paralysis since both sides in this conflict are at cross-purposes. FWIW, taking advantage of this divide is how fascists have historically seized power, at least in the three cases where it has been successful.

The same thing has happened with the EU. Remember, it started out as BENELUX, then the European Coal and Steel Community. Since the creation of the EU proper, it has written a constitution of its own, subject to much controversy, that is ever amassing more power to itself. It's a very dangerous road to go down.

As far as nations within nations that are at least somewhat unhappy with current political arrangements, I am referring to the Flemish, Scots, Welsh, Bretons, Corsicans, northern Italians, Catalonians, Basques--and I could go on.....

The moral is that the closer government is to those it represents, the better it will work, as it is more likely to represent the interests of those it governs. This is just as true in Europe as it is in the US, as evidenced by an increasing disdain and mistrust of the EU by Europeans, especially the French and Germans, its erstwhile biggest supporters.


And now?
Split up and just being tiny subgroups that are in constant conflict with each other?
*slightly rethorical question*
You could also call that a very dangerous road to go down...
I don't believe that Europe will ever be one country one day.

Also not all Unions led to Nations. The Skandinavian countries even had hundrets of years ago their first unions and still managed to keep their independence.


What you address is definitely an interesting question, and that is what effect balkanization has on the peace. There is a scholar with the CFR, Jerry Z. Mueller, who has developed a theory that the reason Europe has had relative peace since WWII is because of the ethnic cleansing conducted in the wake of that war. I'm not sure I buy his entire theory, but I think it is definitely the case that conflict is much more likely when two groups that don't like each other very much are forced to share the same living space as when they are physically segregated.

Another factor that has undoubtedly made Westerners more peaceful is the end of the Malthusian economy--at least for the time being. And this actually seems true for the entire world. As violent as it is in places, in the past it was relatively more violent.

Another factor to consider is that large states or empires tend to engage in large wars whereas smaller states tend to have wars of much lower intensity.

So, I can't say you're wrong that ethnic balkanization would lead to more conflict, but there is good reason to believe this is not the case.

I would add that in the case of Greece, that the economics of the EU have not been good for this country since they need a currency that floats to meet their needs. The failure of the euro to provide this cushion has resulted in the rise of Golden Dawn, which to me is more than a little ominous.

I will agree with you that Europe will not be a single country one day. This has been the dream of conquerors from the time of the Romans until the present day. It has never worked, nor will it. But the attempt to try total integration can certainly lead to tragedy.



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29 Nov 2013, 8:20 pm

GregCav wrote:
I love the Chinese language. It's so musical and with funny whines in it. I love it.


Do you speak Chinese?
I would be interested in how much the Chinese languages can understand each other?
I'm a bit interested especially in Cantonese. But it's just an interest. :D


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28 May 2014, 8:24 am

Raziel wrote:
GregCav wrote:
I love the Chinese language. It's so musical and with funny whines in it. I love it.


Do you speak Chinese?
I would be interested in how much the Chinese languages can understand each other?
I'm a bit interested especially in Cantonese. But it's just an interest. :D


I can speak a little Mandarin. I have many movies and songs I could recommend you if you're interested. Sometimes, if the Language in the movie isn't too complex I can watch the entire movie without subtitles and understand it. Message me if you'd like to know a little bit more. Sorry I can't brief you on Cantonese, it has more tones than Mandarin but the grammar is nearly identical. Things are just said differently and there are some Cantonese exclusive characters, but as far as the writing goes, a native Mandarin Speaker who can write could most likely discern the writing of a Cantonese speaker. To further elaborate on your post, a Cantonese speaker and a Mandarin speaker in some situations I have seen can understand each other when they speak in their own language, but can't speak each other's language fluently. I have also watched some of a Yueju opera called 紅樓夢 the entire play is in Wu Chinese but I can understand a surprisingly decent amount. (thanks to the Chinese subtitles) But I also notice a lot of the words are the same sounds or very similar sounds. As for the funny whines you're referring to. I think you're referring to some of the filler particles in sentences and also at the end to express surprise 啦 la and 啊 a are just two very common examples. Cantonese speakers tend to use them a ton, and I must admit it is so cute to hear. Some of my friends even use them in English. "I'm back la.", "Why not lo...", "remember to drink water today a.", "you don't say a". The few Cantonese movies I have watched (I watch mostly Mandarin for practicing hearing) I notice how often they use the end particles. It is to say the least really adorable, but I think the Cantonese language doesn't sound as pleasant as that Beijing style Mandarin Putonghua with its retroflex 兒 "er" endings. 我沒有甚麼事兒
過一會兒見,我想去美國玩兒,在哪兒? I don't use the retroflex, well sometimes I do by accident hehe. Anyway, hope this explaiation helped! I'm always willing to discuss this topic to anyone who is interested and readily available to suggest music and movies!


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02 Jun 2014, 11:01 pm

I've always liked Finnish. The way words look when written attracts me, i'm especially drawn to the use of umlauts, and the repeating letters. I also love the way it sounds, i don't know how to really describe it but it just sounds so unique, with it's length distinctions, and rightfully so, being related only to Estonian and distantly to Hungarian and other languages in northern Russia.
I'd like to learn some Finnish someday, though it might not seem that useful outside the country, and maybe go to Finland too. How hard does finnish seem to an english native?



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02 Jul 2014, 10:18 pm

I have always liked French, Spanish, and Italian. It sounds nice when it is spoken. I can speak French well, but I'm not fluent (I don't have French background).


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18 Aug 2014, 1:00 pm

I always liked the sound of Hebrew and I really want to learn it



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18 Aug 2014, 8:12 pm

^same here.
i never really understood the purpose of tagin though... :?


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21 Aug 2014, 2:47 am

For me it's, honestly, a tie between German and Japanese. Both of these languages have a very amazing yet interesting history that draws me to it. They both sound great and are a joy to learn. German, for some reason though, reminds me of technology and science and scifi type of stuff.. which are one of my favorite things in the world.



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21 Aug 2014, 2:42 pm

TranzteKk wrote:
For me it's, honestly, a tie between German and Japanese. Both of these languages have a very amazing yet interesting history that draws me to it. They both sound great and are a joy to learn. German, for some reason though, reminds me of technology and science and scifi type of stuff.. which are one of my favorite things in the world.

It's a very logical language, it's highly structured, and any exceptions to grammatical rules are fairly easy to figure out.

It's curious that the most closely related official language, Dutch, is a lot more difficult to learn.


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21 Aug 2014, 4:08 pm

CyclopsSummers wrote:
TranzteKk wrote:
For me it's, honestly, a tie between German and Japanese. Both of these languages have a very amazing yet interesting history that draws me to it. They both sound great and are a joy to learn. German, for some reason though, reminds me of technology and science and scifi type of stuff.. which are one of my favorite things in the world.

It's a very logical language, it's highly structured, and any exceptions to grammatical rules are fairly easy to figure out.

It's curious that the most closely related official language, Dutch, is a lot more difficult to learn.


Very much so, which is why agglutinative languages are my favorite. Even Slavic languages like Russian, Polish, etc have a similar structure to that of agglutinative languages but with gender and verb declension.

I also wonder why Dutch is really difficult.. it seems really sporadic for a Germanic language. Lexically though, it's a lot easier for native English speakers than, say, German.