Восстановим ГРАНИЦЫ СССР. 100 тысяч ИСТЦОВ против Горбачева,

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08 Feb 2022, 5:04 pm

Well, Brezhnev was running a totalitarian system - that was the legacy he inherited and the only system he knew, but I'm sure some sort of progress was being made in modernizing and even humanizing it. He was hardly Stalin Mk 2, was he?

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kraftiekortie
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08 Feb 2022, 5:05 pm

I would agree Brezhnev was no Stalin---yes.

It seems like Putin, if allowed to run wild, might reveal Stalinesque aspects to his being.

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08 Feb 2022, 7:22 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

I, for one, don't want a return to the Cold War.

Should the Ukraine invasion be successful, this would create Cold War conditions.

First you said you want a balance of power and now you said you don't want a return to the Cold War. Actually it is a contradiction. Because "not wanting a return to cold war" implies you want the victor to stay a victor, which means you don't want a balance of power between two sides.

Seeing that Soviet Union lost a cold war unfairly, I guess a do-over would be a good idea. The way they lost it unfairly is that they lost due to the betrayal from the inside (by Gorbachev and Yeltsin) as opposed to conquest from the outside. So I guess a do-over would be nice.

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08 Feb 2022, 7:24 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

The USSR government was quite similar to Trump in at least one regard:

They sought to control what scientists said, and they cracked down on people who didn't agree with the government autocracy (those people whom they cracked down on were called "dissidents."

I never said education in the USSR was lousy. They had a great educational system. But people didn't have freedom of thought (which is an indispensable part of education).

And when did Trum ever shun science?

As far as Soviets, I guess they did. But still if you put things on a balance their scientists did really well. I guess they shunning hippie culture helped science more than shunning scientists hurt it.

magz
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09 Feb 2022, 4:02 am

QFT wrote:

Seeing that Soviet Union lost a cold war unfairly, I guess a do-over would be a good idea. The way they lost it unfairly is that they lost due to the betrayal from the inside (by Gorbachev and Yeltsin) as opposed to conquest from the outside. So I guess a do-over would be nice.

Do you really believe conquest is "fair" and attempts of change from within are "betrayal"?

BTW, the main reason for Eastern Bloc to lose Cold War was economical collapse. Erratic actions of Gorbatchev and Yeltsin were just results of it.

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10 Feb 2022, 9:26 pm

magz wrote:

Do you really believe conquest is "fair" and attempts of change from within are "betrayal"?

I like it when all sides to their best, then none of them feel any regrets.

magz wrote:

BTW, the main reason for Eastern Bloc to lose Cold War was economical collapse. Erratic actions of Gorbatchev and Yeltsin were just results of it.

But economic collapse was started BY Gorbachev and Yeltsin. So its still their fault even if you look at it by this angle.

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10 Feb 2022, 9:29 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

I would agree Brezhnev was no Stalin---yes.

It seems like Putin, if allowed to run wild, might reveal Stalinesque aspects to his being.

I think Putin is similar to Brezhnev but certainly not Stalin.

I mean Stalin would arrest someone for saying a single word against the government. Well, under Putin, there are well known opposition figures that were in opposition for years, and are still not arrested.

Also look at how many millions Stalin arrested. In case of Putin we are talking only about half a dozen of people that are *arguably* arrested for political reasons (Khodorkovsky and Navalny are good examples). In case of Stalin there were far too many to name.

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10 Feb 2022, 9:40 pm

magz wrote:

DeepHour wrote:

I always felt the world was a pretty safe place, at least as far as the East-West thing was concerned, when we had the likes of Brezhnev running the show in the Soviet Union. Everyone knew pretty much where they stood, and there was very little chance of anything 'kicking off' on the nuclear front, despite all the propaganda and ideological window-dressing. Things became a lot more worrying when Gorbachev came along, followed by that clown Yeltsin.

Just my two kopeks, folks.

From your safe distance...

The instability of Gorbachev and Yeltsin's times were exactly the opportunity for people here.

So in other words you are admitting that westerners actually *want* to weaken Russia? I mean you just told me that Russian collapse is opportunity for the west. So how are Russians supposed to feel about that.

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10 Feb 2022, 9:47 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

I never said education in the USSR was lousy. They had a great educational system. But people didn't have freedom of thought (which is an indispensable part of education).

If anything, its in America where they had students memorize the answers. Back in Soviet Union they were trying to get people to think. For example, they didn't have such a thing as SAT. Instead they would have oral exam where they would ask one question and have students think about it. Sometimes they would trick students. For example they might ask why one side of cup of water is warmer than the other. Students would come up with intricate theories but it turns out that the answer is simply that the light shines on that side. But even the students that give "wrong" answer would be evaluated for how well they thought through their answer. Other times the questions might be truly complicated without simple answer. So I don't see why you keep saying they didn't want people to think. They did.

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10 Feb 2022, 9:50 pm

magz wrote:

QFT wrote:

kraftiekortie wrote:

I just feel, should Russia conquer Ukraine, that the world balance will be detrimental to NATO.

Well, as it is, NATO is much stronger than Russia. So in order to have "world balance" one would want to strengthen Russia and weaken NATO.

I think the conquer itself and lack of reaction to it would have set a very dangerous precedent to the fragile world balance - sending away the message we get back to the age of imperial conquests.
Quite encouraging for China about Taiwan it would be...

First of all its not really a conquest. If you look at the original link, it talks about a court case. Thats different.

Besides, I am sure there are plenty of conquests throughout the current world anyway. When Israel conquered some of the Palestinian lands that was a good example. And then throughout Africa I am sure there are a lot more examples.

And then of course there is America sending troops to Iraq and Iran and its fine, yet when Russia sends troops to Syria or even the neighboring Crimea then its bad.

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10 Feb 2022, 9:56 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

I have no interest in "weakening" Russia. You're ascribing a meaning to my statements which just does not exist. In fact, I'd rather that Russia be "strong." I have a great admiration for Russia. I just don't have much regard for Putin. Much of Ukraine doesn't want to become a Russian satellite again---just like in Soviet days.

Ukraine doesn't want to "weaken" Russia; Ukraine just wants Russia to leave them alone.

The part where you implied that you wanted to weaken Russia is when you said that NATO would dislike Ukraine joining Russia for the same reason as Russia would dislike Ukraine joining NATO. That specific statement seems to suggest that NATO would be afraid that Russia will be strengthened by having Ukraine join it. Or in other words it wants Russia weak. At least it sounded that way.

kraftiekortie wrote:

I feel, should Russia conquer Ukraine, that the world balance will be detrimental to NATO.

Here you go. Thats where you talk about wanting Russia weaker.

You seem to say that right now Russia is equally strong as NATO but if it were to get Ukraine it would become stronger than NATO.

I disagree. I think right now Russia is weaker than NATO, but if it were to get Ukraine it woudl be closer to the balance. It would still be weaker but not as much weaker.

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10 Feb 2022, 9:58 pm

magz wrote:

I must say it for your parents: it's hard not to be paranoid after having lived in Soviet Russia.
You were young and autistic so you were probably pretty oblivious to the problem their decisions resolve around: the state not keeping to its own laws, basically putting everyone in unpredictable risks people have to constantly navigate via gossip and guessing.
"Little green men" in Ukraine are just another symptom of this problem.

Keep in mind that my parents are Jewish. Interestingly, ethnic Russians don't seem to dislike Russia that much. It is largely Jews that dislike it and leave. I mean, if I look at US immigrants from Russia, they are disproportionally Jewish. On the other hand, the approval rating of Putin among the Russian population (the one that didn't leave) is high.

They didn't break it down on ethnicities when they calculated approval rating, but seeing that the proportion of Jews in Russia is like 1 or 2 percent, it would be a good guess to say that the high approval rating of Putin is probably coming from non-Jews seeing how Jews are the ones who like to leave.

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11 Feb 2022, 7:56 am

QFT wrote:

magz wrote:

DeepHour wrote:

From your safe distance...

The instability of Gorbachev and Yeltsin's times were exactly the opportunity for people here.

Russian collapse was an opportunity for Poland and other states that wanted to break free from Moscow and change their politics and economies to Western style.

Poland wasn't by any means "the West" in 1989.

Of course those who want to leave someone's zone of influence benefit from weakening the one they want to leave - especially when threat of using force against leaving is present. That was the case in 1980s Poland and that is the case in today's Ukraine.

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Восстановим ГРАНИЦЫ СССР. 100 тысяч ИСТЦОВ против Горбачева, Post Reply New Topic

Восстановим ГРАНИЦЫ СССР. 100 тысяч ИСТЦОВ против Горбачева,