Are you confused by forms of address in other languages?

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This is just something I have been wondering about for some time...

Some languages use two different forms of address for formal and informal conversations. In German it's "Sie" for people who you regard as having some kind of authority or for strangers and it's "du" for friends, family members and generally for more relaxed situations.

For example you would say:

"Kannst du mir bitte das Salz geben?" when you are talking to a friend, but

"Können Sie mir bitte das Salz geben?" to your teacher or a senior co-worker.

Now English only knows one form of address, "you". I know that there are other ways of varying the formality of a sentence in English, like "Could you pass me the salt, please?" as compared to "Pass the salt, will you?".

But how do you feel about our German dual forms of address (or their French, Spanish, whatever equivalent) when you are learning that language and your native language only has a single form of address?

Do you get confused? Do you find it difficult to figure out which form of address to use in which situation? Do you get used to the whole thing with time and hardly think about it any more?

Going the other ways was quite simple for me. It's not difficult or confusing to just call everyone "you" and not to have worry about the social context of the situation. *shrug*

I don't like these formal and informal forms. Sometimes I don't know which to choose or feel strange when somebody calls me formal. I wish we had something like English you.

Your post reminded me very well known Aspie situation:

A: Kannst du mir bitte das Salz geben?
B: Ich kann
...
...
A: Gib mir dieses Salz! (grrr)

I've always wondered (having studied both French and German, and being a native American English speaker) - what does the conversation sound like when you've crossed the line from acquaintance to friend? For example, is there an equivalent to: "Oh, don't be so silly, with your 'Sie'! Of course you can use 'du' with me!" Or is there a reverse when you've had a falling out? Or an uncomfortable silence when you've used the familiar and you shouldn't have?

I have a bit of trouble with it, because the concept is quite literally foreign to me. Of course, English used to have the same arrangement (with "thou" being intimate and "you" being the more formal) but we did away with that, just like a lot of other silly practices. It's not nearly as bad as the whole "words have gender" thing, though. German has six different ways of saying "the"!

I hate when my cell calls me Sie!


MV, it can look in many ways. Some examples:
1. A to many people, f.e. at work: Let's call everybody with a name! Don't make a fake distance!

2. A: Do you have anything against du?
B: Hell no!
or B: Better call me Sie, we're not close friends.

3. A: You (du) look very pretty...
B: Hey, we're not friends!

4. A: Let's call us with name! I'm A.
B: Ok, great idea, I'm B.

Theres no reverse when you've had a falling out.

Basically, using those words is a form of super politeness which also suggest a certain amount of distance to one another or a form of respect. Adults that you do not know are always Sie (or U in my language) until they say that you can use the formal variation which is usually immediately. The person you speak with is the one who decides what you can call them, not you.

It is possible however that when you get the hang of the idea behind formal and informal address that you prefer to use the formal variation even though people say you can use the informal one. Sometimes you want to address respect and address the natural distance between people (like in a hierarchy, speaking to your superior, asking personal stuff from a relative stranger, a customer etc) towards your conversation partner..... I'm often in conversations with the parents of the kids i care for and i use formal and informal on and off. But as a native dutch, like everyone here ive developed a natural sense for it as i grew older.


I actually find languages like english where you adress all people in all situations as "you" kind of hard. I have no idea how to verbally express respect towards people without falling into really formal stuff like Mister or Mrs Johnson. My ex parents in law were both 60+ years old when i first met them (i was 18). Calling them by You and their first name just sounded too impolite to me, but calling them Mr Lastname was wayyyyy too off too! So instead whenerver i wanted to talk to them i just said "Umm..." or "hey" :')


In Holland, most people prefer to be called by the informal address and the whole "you can use the informal varation!" is a semi serious social game we don't enjoy playing. But i believe that in Germany people are very serious about it! Dunno about France and other countries like Denmark for example.

But, when people notice you are a foreigner attempting to speak their languages, they honestly couldnt care less. In holland we'd all be like "wow omg! You speak our language!?!?!?!?!?!? ! !! ! " In germany and france they'd say probably say "Thats great coz i really cant speak english at alllll...."

In German, there are some simple guidelines as to when you should use "Sie" instead of "du". Basically, you use "Sie", if the person you are talking to is:

- a person who is noteably older than you.
- a stranger in a formal situation (e.g. a business meeting).
- a person who holds any form of authority over you (a doctor, a teacher, your boss...).

There are some exceptions of course. Most noteably, younger people (aged 30 or below) will almost always use the informal "du" even with complete strangers of their own age group.

The common convention is that the person who is more "Sie"-able (older, holds more authority...) is entitled to propose the use of "du". It can be considered rude if the younger or subordinate person does this.

I think these guidelines hold true with most languages that know several forms of address.

What I like in work environments is the combination of given name and "Sie". This gives you a feeling that you really work with the others in your company and not just alongside them, but at the same time the situation does not get too intimate.

Example (in the canteen, obviously ):

"Peter, könnten Sie mir bitte das Salz geben?"

instead of:

"Herr Müller, könnten Sie mir bitte das Salz geben?"

or

"Peter, kannst du mir bitte das Salz geben?"

With teachers, I don't get confused as long as they are using the logical form.

That is, when you call them by their last name it's "sir" or "Sie", and when you call them by their first name it's "you" or "du".

I really can't stand it when they say it's okay to use their first name, and then still want to be called "Sie" (or "U" in Dutch). It's just weird.

I think if you grew up with it, you get used to it. At least I did.

The German "Sie" is simply a form of respect. If a stranger addresses you as "du" and is not a kid or a foreigner, this is an obvious sign that they regard you as inferior. I'm only 19 and already notice that - it's kind of a small insult.

19 - and I guess most of your 20s - is a difficult age anyway. If someone seems to be about my age, I usually address them as "du" (as indicated by FluffyDog). But I never feel sure about it.

But like other Users here I like the distance that the formal address offers. It enables you to have several levels of intimacy according to which person you're speaking to.

I used to study Korean, which has many honorific levels, which are particularly shown in verb conjugations (and some differences in vocabulary) and they didn't confuse me at all. I've never been in a situation like Valayossa illustrated where people conversing are trying to decide what level to use, but honorifics has never confused me, it's easy for me.

There is a similarity between German Sie/du and Dutch u/jij.

Note the following though:
- U is generally written in lower case (except at the start of the sentence) unlike German Sie. Uppercase U is only used when you address God. If you address to one or to more than one person, you will always use u. Of course you can say u allen to make the audience sure that you address all of them;
- Jij is the stressed form, and je is the unstressed form. The objective form of jij is jou, form je is je;
- Gij is an obsolete form, mainly used when addressing God. It also has absolete conjugation (Gij zij, gij waart = Thou art, thou werest);
- Jullie is used when you address more than one people in an informal situation;

As a child I have messed with u when adressing more than one adult and wanting to be polite at the same time. I said jullie instead of u.

A chemistry teacher used jij and je to one pupil, which is correct. But he used u when addressing more than one pupils. In that case he should have been used jullie.

I guess because I've studied German for so long, the Sie form is not confusing to me and it is very comfortable. German is a very polite language and there's different ways to express politeness in German. I feel more polite just speaking German!

Spanish follows more or less the same sorts of distinctions between the honorific and familiar forms of the second person pronoun as German, so that's no problem for me, although many Mexicans and Mexican-Americans here in Texas do not care for the Usted form--they think it sounds pretentious and have stopped using it altogether.

French is a little less rigid than German, so you can get away with using the familiar second person pronoun tu more often, I've found, but if you want service people and strangers to be polite and cooperative with you, you're best off using the vous form by default. And unless you want be a called a rude American (or whatever you happen to be), always use vous with older French speakers.

Japanese's honorific form, the -san suffix, is easy. You just use with everyone except yourself, your family and your most intimate friends. Japanese is insanely polite. You're better safe than sorry with Japanese.

My problem is with Gaelic. Gaelic has a polite form, sibh, versus the familiar form, thu. Gaelic is not the most polite language around. It's a very community-oriented language, so it's root in closely knit communities where people were very familiar with each other and with the customs and norms of their close knit society. A lot things can be taken for granted in Gaelic culture, so they are not explicitly expressed in the language itself. Gaelic technically doesn't have a word for "please"--instead there's the phrase "Mas e ur toil e" which literally means "if it is to your liking" which is a relatively recent phrase introduced to parallel the way English uses "please" and French uses "s'il vous plait." Even though it's widely accepted, it sounds awkward and un-Gaelic to many native speakers. According to my Gaelic teacher, who grew up in a Gaelic speaking community, Gaelic speakers don't really ask "please." They ask for what they want in a polite tone, but there's no word, phrase of special grammar construction in Gaelic to convey politeness beyond the honorific use of sibh (which is also the plural second person). But when to use sibh isn't always clear. If you're around older native Gaelic speakers, definitely use it when talking to them, but in any other situation, I can't ever be 100% sure if the other person expects me to use sibh with them or not. But most Gaelic speakers are just happy anyone is trying to speak Gaelic with them, so I guess I get a free pass if i don't use it when I ought! As they say, 'S fhèarr Gàidhlig bhriste na Beurla chliste (Better it is broken Gaelic than prefect English--perhaps not very polite to English, eh? LOL. Well, considering how English speakers have historically treated Gaelic speakers, you can understand why!! !).