Where Males stand in this forum

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life can be like that, Padium.

I think what it means is no one speaks for the Woman's Discussion section. If you want to post, by all means do so. If you don't care to post, then don't. Sorry, I don't have an answer for you other than that.

Padium-

If you see yourself as a woman, well that's good enough for me.

sinsboldly- I respect your position as a Moderator, and I'm not trying to cause trouble. This is a great site and I've already received valuable information about something I was struggling with. I'd like to stay on. It's just that as a new person I've taken some time to read through to get a feel for the forum and learn what the right behaviour is, and I'm a little uneasy at some of the responses I've read.

Is there a more appropriate method (eg PM) or thread that I should be discussing this in? I'm open to your suggestions.

I just feel like it's a bit strange that a structured Women's Discussion was made but I'm still getting such a nebulous and inconsistent idea of it's spirit and what the guidelines are.
And I have seen some unsupportive or crude stuff posted by males when the women are trying to discuss something, which is why I thought the women were given a section for that? Everyone has a different idea. 'Women's Discussion should be for women?' 'Just get over it because men will say all kinds of things and they're allowed?' 'Post a header asking for women's responses only?' 'Just don't talk about the girl stuff even though there's a thread made for it?'

I saw someone say once that posts would be deleted etc but that doesn't happen, I don't really know what the go with any of it is and would like to get it sorted out in my head because it's causing me a lot of confusion and discomfort.

sometimes men can make a valuable contribution to a thread in the women's section.
I am not terribly good at ignoring posts that are inflammatory - I often just reply and then reflect later that it is better to ignore troublesome posts that are not to my liking.
Activebutodd...maybe just ignore the posts you do not like (if you can) and get on with the business of responding to posts that engage you or are meaningful to you.
as for those with more fluid sexuality and gender - - my feeling is all are welcome. always have been and always will be.

Yes Millie. I'm not saying men should be banned and never contribute because they're all bad and such things. No. What I mean is I'm comfortable with guys having something to add if it's THAT important to them (probably personally more so in topics like society, than more body ones I guess, but whatever) but the reason I got so unhappy about it was when I saw that some replies were very sarcastic or inappropriate. That makes it really difficult to get the best out of that discussion area imo.
I don't think that's hugely unreasonable to want to know whether that's alright. (Incidentally I actually have ignored one that quoted me because I didn't want to be drawn by it)

Breaking my view down so people know exactly what I mean and don't think me out of line-
Comfort levels.
*If a guy posts asking to understand better what his wife/girlfriend experiences or something, I'm not going to fuss. Ditto if a member is MTF, I don't mind.
*If a man starts posting in a breasts and periods kinda thread, I don't know about that so much, or why they're so interested. (Unless they're a doctor, but you can go to those in RL if things are that bad.)
*If a male makes angry comments when women talk about their experiences or takes the topic in an inappropriately sexual way when that wasn't wanted, then I really don't feel comfortable with that.
There. That's that I've been saying. I don't hate men or want to make drama. I just feel ^ like that. Some of it was before I joined, but I wanted to work out any kinks about stuff now because I'd like to stay on here.

Also, I've been operating so far under the idea that the Women's Discussion was for women. But now it occurs to me that maybe it is intended to be for anyone, and created for talking about women and such? I don't know... the topic was not specific. Is that how it works, because that simplifies matters if it is. Maybe if I'm aware of that, post a header 'can women only reply' and if that's respected..
I guess in that case I can keep posting and work around it that way.

I see what you mean. But that means one would need a policeman/woman moderator at the women;s forum gate, and maybe that is getting into a realm that is too subjective and complex to actually arbitrate over. I think the mods always do their best here..even when they pull me up about my bluntness or my lack of awareness of inappropriate behaviour.

good luck anyway. hope you enjoy WP. I do. It has become a very important part of my life, even though I can get annoyed here at times.
there are good people here. see you round....

Totally welcome, IMO

Thanks Millie, I think I will enjoy it here! You make a good point.

It doesn't really help me with topics where the OP hasn't specifically requested 'female', but I will use the header myself and if I see something way disrespectful in a current discussion I will PM a mod and let them decide what to do. Meh!

Thanks for discussing with me. Ok, I shall now go around to 'see what I can see'!

Hello activebutodd! Welcome to WP and I hope you love it here as much as our other members!There used to be a moderator here in the Woman's Discussion section. I don't know what happened to her, as all moderators are volunteer and we are just happy when someone shows up. When they are gone, they are often just gone with no explanation.

If someone wants a post deleted or a thread moved to another section or even completely removed, then PM a moderator. http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt76158.html has a list of them. If someone is in violation of the rules, then please PM a mod. WP is huge and we depend on our membership to keep WP the type of place they want it to be and clue the moderation team in on what is going on.

So, everyone is a moderator to some extent. This section: The WP Discussion Section http://www.wrongplanet.net/forum13.html is where a lot of members start threads about concerns with WP. You are certainly welcome to post there your concerns.

As a member I used to post in the Woman's thread, but as a mod, I have been too heavily scrutinized about my 'feminist' ways to want to call down comment on my personal feelings. Perhaps someday, when I pass the moderator baton I can go back to being just a member and be able to use WP like other members and not have that double standard to labor under.

But that is another story! Welcome to WP!

Ok, thanks! That helps a lot

Um. Does anyone see the flaw in this? Mathematics is an object, we can treat it thus, talk ABOUT it. I know I'm new here but pls bear with... I'd hazard a guess that the purpose of this section isn't to talk about women, it's FOR women to talk about things that concern them/us/whatever. I know you didn't explicitly say that GhostOfTheChameleon, but could be seen as somewhat implied - and "talking about" was actually stated by someone else in this thread (cbf to go and find the quote)..

Anyway...

Try to think of it this way. In a science/math forum, the forum is open to everyone. However if someone has a specifically technical question, they might request that experts in that field only reply. Someone who is not familiar with the technicalities of that field might complicate matters further, or bring the discussion to something that is not entirely relevant. It doesn't mean the non experts are incapable of contributing, or that their contribution is invaluable, just that their contribution may not, or may be unlikely to, progress the discussion to the desired level, and could even slow it down (such as with n00b questions).

This is about efficiency. It's not that we don't value men's contributions, just that because our experiences are more closely linked in this one particular way, women are more able to get to the point on certain issues faster. Perhaps if a male truly has something valuable to add, he could start a new thread addressing the issue, or still try to contribute but be prepared for whatever response, especially if there was a warning at the start of the thread.

I think it's fair enough if someone has been sufficiently notified that they be prepared for the consequences of their actions, no matter the situation. And anyone who feels they can't contribute but still wishes to is welcome to start a new thread to address the topic, in which they are perfectly welcome to state who they would prefer to hear responses from.

Counter example: You have a post about menstrual pain that is clearly labeled female responses only, specifically because you want expert advice. A male gynecologist comes and posts a reply based on his knowledge in the field. Which of the following do you do? 1) Ignore his post or petition to get it deleted because he is male and clearly not an expert. 2) Attack his post because he is male and clearly not an expert. 3) Listen to his post and trust that he knows exactly what he is talking about because he is a gynecologist and clearly an expert. Or 4) Read his post, and apply a female perspective to what he has said, as although he is a gynecologist, and has to be an expert by law to carry such a title, but is male and cannot possibly understand how the female perspective changes how it is perceived, thus getting the most possible out of what he said.

Being MTF transexual, I am kinda like the male gynecologist in that situation. The difference is I have acquired all my knowledge through more hours of research on the topic since I first discovered the search engine on the internet as a result of me wanting to know what life would be like for me after my operation (of course later I discovered that some of the things I researched don't apply, but I still made myself an expert on them before I knew that), so I have a knowledge matching his in most aspects. On top of that, I have the female perpective, I have had it since birth, and up until it became obvious to my dad I wasn't normal in terms or Gender Identity and Sexual Orientation, he kept trying to steer me away from being feminine. At puberty, he associated it with homosexuality (close, but still wrong). Then I finally came out to my parents as trans (they think I am confused, and will support me in getting help, and in whatever decision is determined to be best for me). Online I am known as trans in all communities that I was previously in, and are not connected to my real life, I am known as female in all communities I have joined since coming out. I am also working on changing my online identities in those areas directly related to me in real life by replacing them with a new account (such as my email and facebook). Of the people I know in real life, only one of my friends knows, and she accepts me as female, and my step sister also accepts me as female. They haven't quite switche over to using my new name when appropriate though, but that will come in time. Back on topic: In a year or less, my bodily experiences will also be more female, as in that time I will start actually changing my body to become more feminine through hormones and surgeries. Now I will not experience all the same bodily experiences associated with being female, but on the same hand, people born female bodied will never experience the difficulties directly associated with having an artificially female body. And while our experiences are not exactly the same in terms of the body, our experiences still overlap, and the areas where they will be different, females can help me because of similarities in things they have experienced, and I can help you from similarities in what I have experienced, its not directly applicable, but with knowledge on how to cross apply the experience it is of help.

On that note, I already know exactly where I stand. Being transexual is about being who I am, but because it is not normal, it becomes a politics issue with everything I do. I will not post somewhere where I feel my input would be unnecessary, or where it wouldn't be wise for me to comment. This is because in everything I do, I have to balance the politics of my actions, otherwise, I just end up creating a harmful situation for myself. On that note, there have ben topics where it would have been bad politics for me to reply, even though I felt more than qualified to reply, but because of balancing politics, I decided against it. Despite how I was born, there is one thing I never truly was, and never will be, and that is a man... Also to not, I often get pegged as a feminist in most online communities where I am known as female. This is because I am feminist. I believe strongly in women's rights, always have. Feminism to me is about the right to choose one's own destiny, men always had this right, we women had to work hard for it, and now that we have it, we have to work hard to make sure it is enforced.

Re Padium, it was ment as a simplistic illustrative generalisation.

Definitely didn't mean to imply that women are the only people who can be experts on things relating to women. Certainly in an ideal world if a medical question was asked a related medical experts opinion would be appreciated. By all means, if a guy thinks his input will be valuable to the discussion, I say go for it, all I was saying is that anyone who was asked explicitly not to post and does anyway should take into account that they were asked not to and be accepting of the response they receive, positive, negative or neutral.

In answer to your question, firstly I think there are two kinds of "expert" here that could get easily confused. The literal kind, doctors medical professionals etc, and the non literal which was meant as analogous, but not equivalent, to the formal expert. I hope that makes sense? For instance the only person who is an expert on your life experience is yourself. The only people who can be experts on what it is like to be a natural born female are natural born females - in that sense of expert rather than the hard formal sense.

Now to answer... close to 4. If the problem seemed serious and I wanted a medical opinion, I would prob ask my dr. If I was just curious as to other women's experiences with that particular menstral pain, and how they handled it, I would probably not greatly desire a man's input, unless their wife or daughter or something had had a similar experience. With anyone, male or female, I would most likely take into account their input as long as it was not offensive, and respond appropriately. In this situation I would probably be fishing for anecdotal information rather than purely factual, and so a dr's opinion would be valued but maybe not quite what I was looking for.

Well done for choosing to be yourself and not be tied down by others perceptions of how you should be. You're right in that I will never experience being female in the same way you will. I mean, are there things you think you can only really talk about with other MTF transexuals? Your bodily changes, other people's perceptions of you, their reaction to you? Situations where you might get frustrated with natural born physical females, or any other gender? In my opinion the transgender experience adds a whole nother dimension to gender identity, enriching it thus.

Soz that was longer than intended. Hopefully it illustrated the point a bit better though.

Generalizations never take into account all possibilities, that is why it is best to avoid them. My parents generalized me as male for how many years, and all it did was make my life worse...



And if they want to reply, they have to know the ground on which they stand, know themselves, and know the people they are replying to. Knowing their ground and knowing themselves but not knowing who they are replying to, their response will not be as useful. knowing only the ground on which they stand, and their response will be useless but not offensive, not knowing any of these, and they are just making a fool of themselves.



It was a rhetorical question meant to point out that generalizations can be a bad thing. As for the bodily experiences, when all is said and done, there will only be two categories where I won't share the same bodily experiences, the menstrual cycle (although if i really wanted to, i could have a hormone regime emulate it for the primary psychological effects), and child-bearing (although with recent advancements in medical technology, this is becoming a real possibility, and might be available to me by the time I want children). Everything else is either hormonally or surgically induced, or I have already felt as it is a part of perspective.



Don't discount what people have to say before they say it. Some people will be idiots, but at least give them a chance to show that they are such, and then you can easily discount what they have to say, but some people actually do meet the three things I mentioned above, and thus will have a legitimate response that is useful, and by jumping to a conclusion early, you have just ignored what could be the best (although that is unlikely) advice, or even advice you might not have otherwise thought of.



I am on a transgender forum for these issues, and to be perfectly honest, a lot of the issues I will have that are not political, I can get advice on here faster than I can there.



Well, mine is a little longer than expected, but now to get to the point. Men certainly don't have the God given right to be here, but that doesn't mean they can't either. All it means is that they should either contribute thoughtfully and usefully where appropriate, or not contribute at all. As for transexuals, all transexuals will have insights most people won't, as they had to deal with 2 major things, suppressing what gender there body was born, and changing their gender to match what their mind is. In the example of FTM, they have tried to suppress physical femininity, and will likely (although I cannot say for certain) have more experience with suppressing obvious female traits, which may be usefull and relevant here. MTFs have had physical male traits, often including those involving hormones, and can offer insight into the male world, with a female perspective, as well as eventually having the physical bodily aspects of femininity in a slightly different way that also offer new insights.

The womens discussion forum is because there appear to be less female autistics than male ones.

actually there were a Men's Discussion section and a Woman's Discussion section but the Men's Discussion section was made into the InDepth Adult Discussion section about two years ago.

there has been a sticky of a Men's Discussion thread in the InDepth Adult Discussion area, at this link http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt101191.html

Wow...
The moderator stickied a troll thread.

Now come on, you are just being a fascist and your post reeks of wanting to have a special club where one group has special deletion powers over another.

Why not just simply state this forum is moderated more heavily than the others and that higher standards are expected?

Instead you chose to attack an entire gender. Even the title is disrespectful.