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AmethystRose
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16 Jul 2014, 1:47 am

starkid wrote:
HisMom wrote:
Great post, especially about flirting sometimes being unintentional.


No. Flirting is never unintentional:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/flirt?s=t

flirt [flurt] Show IPA
verb (used without object)
1.
to court triflingly or act amorously without serious intentions; play at love; coquet.


There is no way to unintentionally court someone or "act amorously." Acting "amorously" is flirting. Acting in a way that is mistaken for acting "amorously" is not flirting. If it were flirting, then anything and everything that anyone took for flirting would be flirting.

The meaning of an action is determined by the intent of she who acts, not the interpretation of the audience.


The OP clearly stated that she's concerned about unintentionally welcoming unwanted sexual advances by "leading a man on," which can absolutely happen. It happens every day. Shyness and anxiety coupled with friendliness looks like flirting; it looks coy.

The definition of being "coy" is: Making a pretense of shyness or modesty that is intended to be alluring.

So if a girl seems to be acting coy and a guy decides to test the waters with some gentle touch somewhere harmless, and the girl seems OK with that touch, then he will see this as confirmation that she's just being coy. He's going to think he can get further. This can quickly escalate.

Also, let's not forget that we're in an autism spectrum disorder discussion forum, not just a "woman's issues" forum; you think a person with ASD would be in no danger in the situation I just described? You're taking the OP's question out of context and telling her things that can get her into real danger.

By the way, the OP is 14 years old, FYI.

Thank you.



tarantella64
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16 Jul 2014, 8:47 am

Anna_K wrote:
I am confused about how to tell if you are leading a guy on / welcoming unwanted sexual advances. I have a hard time knowing when I am leading a guy on. I am worried that I might do or say something to a guy that I'm friends with, and he might perceive it as flirting, and try to touch me inappropriately. I hope I posted this in the right forum......


Anna, if you're 14, and a boy is touching you without your consent -- like he's actually asked you permission and you said yes, not just didn't say no -- you need to tell your parents. And if he keeps on touching you, they need to get the police involved. There is no such thing as "leading on". It's an excuse boys use when they've been caught doing something sexual to a girl without her permission.

This is also a good time for your parents to have a conversation with your principal about teaching kids about what consent and sexual assault are, and how "she led me on" is not a reason or an excuse, ever. And what kind of legal and life trouble can follow for kids who ignore that reality. They may want to point out that apart from the general wisdom of getting that straight with the kids, the district has autistic students who do not necessarily pick up well on social cues, and that it would be a bit of a legal disaster for the district if an autistic girl were assaulted on school property by a boy who then insisted she'd led him on because (she smiled at him/she didn't say no/she went with him to his car/etc.)

In fact you've made me realize that this should be a standard part of the guidance curriculum in any district. I'll have to see what goes on here. Thanks.



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16 Jul 2014, 11:47 am

That?s why disallowing any contact between boys and girls makes things so very much simpler for parents and school.

AmethystRose wrote:
I don't have any useful advice, really, other than to say that if a man touches you in an inappropriate place without working up to it by first touching you somewhere more innocent but still sensitive, like your back or cheek, and without going slowly enough to give you time to stop him, then he is TROUBLE, and you need to just leave. A friend would never do that, because friends care; a friend who doesn't care is not a friend.


A clueless enough?read: aspie?friend may certainly do that without any evil intent on his part. The safest way for him to avoid it is to assume it is never appropriate to make any move to get close to a woman, which will probably bar him from making female friends in the first place, and even this cautionary measure can fail in a social situation in which he vaguely feels he is expected to do something, but doesn?t know what?for example, if you?re dancing with him.

Of course, if you tell him what is making you uncomfortable and he insists, with no signs of apologizing and correcting his behavior, he?s not your friend.


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HisMom
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16 Jul 2014, 3:53 pm

starkid wrote:
HisMom wrote:
Great post, especially about flirting sometimes being unintentional.


No. Flirting is never unintentional:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/flirt?s=t

flirt [flurt] Show IPA
verb (used without object)
1.
to court triflingly or act amorously without serious intentions; play at love; coquet.


There is no way to unintentionally court someone or "act amorously." Acting "amorously" is flirting. Acting in a way that is mistaken for acting "amorously" is not flirting. If it were flirting, then anything and everything that anyone took for flirting would be flirting.

The meaning of an action is determined by the intent of she who acts, not the interpretation of the audience.


What is the intent is unclear or ambiguous to the audience ? Who has the onus of clarifying the situation ? Is it the responsibility of "she who acts" or the job of "he who mistakenly perceives" ? And, is there any reason why "she who acts" would be hard pressed to "clear the air" ? Especially if the feelings / sentiments / emotions of the other person (the perceiver) are important to her ?

There is no point in arguing semantics. If a misunderstanding arises between two people, then *both* parties will benefit from attempts to "clear the air". There is no point putting all the responsibility for communication gone awry on one person when that communication involved TWO people to begin with !


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HisMom
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16 Jul 2014, 3:56 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
starkid wrote:
Leading someone on is by definition intentional. If you don't know whether or not you are doing it, then you are definitely not doing it. Someone misinterpreting your words and/or actions is not your fault.


Yay! starkid wins the thread.


Indeed ! !! :lol:


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O villain, villain, smiling, damnèd villain!
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That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.
At least I'm sure it may be so in "Denmark".

-- Hamlet, 1.5.113-116


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16 Jul 2014, 6:32 pm

AmethystRose wrote:
The OP clearly stated that she's concerned about unintentionally welcoming unwanted sexual advances by "leading a man on," which can absolutely happen. It happens every day. Shyness and anxiety coupled with friendliness looks like flirting; it looks coy.

The definition of being "coy" is: Making a pretense of shyness or modesty that is intended to be alluring.

So if a girl seems to be acting coy and a guy decides to test the waters with some gentle touch somewhere harmless, and the girl seems OK with that touch, then he will see this as confirmation that she's just being coy. He's going to think he can get further. This can quickly escalate.

Also, let's not forget that we're in an autism spectrum disorder discussion forum, not just a "woman's issues" forum; you think a person with ASD would be in no danger in the situation I just described? You're taking the OP's question out of context and telling her things that can get her into real danger.

By the way, the OP is 14 years old, FYI.

Thank you.


I think that you don't understand my point because nothing in this post of yours appears to have any connection to anything in the post of mine which you have quoted. I neither stated not implied that having one's actions misinterpreted was dangerous or not; I merely stated that such actions do not constitute flirting (or "leading someone on") if they are not intended as such. This is a clarification of the meaning of words. I do not see how a linguistic clarification can endanger anyone.

Furthermore, since you brought it up, it's not the misinterpretation of OPs actions that is dangerous, it is the inappropriate physical actions men that poses the danger, and your apparent attempt to place the burden of responsibility on the OP for this constitutes victim-blaming. A respectful response to the assumption of flirting would go no further than an attempted kiss at the most, and a more aggressive physical response than that has nothing to do with flirting, misconstrued or otherwise, and would therefore not be the OPs fault. No one "leads someone on" to harm them; this is always the fault of the perpetrator.



HisMom
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16 Jul 2014, 8:07 pm

starkid wrote:

I think that you don't understand my point because nothing in this post of yours appears to have any connection to anything in the post of mine which you have quoted. I neither stated not implied that having one's actions misinterpreted was dangerous or not; I merely stated that such actions do not constitute flirting (or "leading someone on") if they are not intended as such. This is a clarification of the meaning of words. I do not see how a linguistic clarification can endanger anyone.

Furthermore, since you brought it up, it's not the misinterpretation of OPs actions that is dangerous, it is the inappropriate physical actions men that poses the danger, and your apparent attempt to place the burden of responsibility on the OP for this constitutes victim-blaming. A respectful response to the assumption of flirting would go no further than an attempted kiss at the most, and a more aggressive physical response than that has nothing to do with flirting, misconstrued or otherwise, and would therefore not be the OPs fault. No one "leads someone on" to harm them; this is always the fault of the perpetrator.


This isn't about who is at fault, it is about keeping our daughters safe. I am old enough to be this OP's mother and my own daughter will be a teenager in a few years' time. If she (my daughter) were to come to me and ask if I thought that she was UNINTENTIONALLY leading a boy on, I would NOT be telling her to NOT WORRY ABOUT IT, and to keep on acting as she wants, because the boy's interpretations of her actions do not matter, as she does not INTEND to lead him on at all ! !! !! !!

HELL, NO !

I would be telling her to stop acting in ANY manner - including something as innocent as batting her eyelashes at him - to stop the boy from getting any ideas that his sexual advances just might be welcomed by my kid. If a teenaged boy riding a hormonal wave is paying *any* attention to my teenaged daughter, it most assuredly isn't because he thinks that they are going to be best friends forever, yeah ? So, the onus is on me to make sure that BOTH kids know the deal and stay safe, and OUT OF TROUBLE.

This isn't about victim blaming or placing unnecessary constraints on our girls, or giving our boys carte blanche to make advances on any girl that they thought was "available" but about keeping our children safe. I am sorry, but your post about how intention is more important than interpretation does not sit well with me, because the outcome of this particular scenario is going to depend on the "audience's" interpretation, not on the "actor's" intention.


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O villain, villain, smiling, damnèd villain!
My tables—meet it is I set it down
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.
At least I'm sure it may be so in "Denmark".

-- Hamlet, 1.5.113-116


Azereiah
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16 Jul 2014, 9:22 pm

Declare your intentions beforehand. Make sure they understand that you are NOT interested in them.
And, for that matter, don't be afraid to stop someone from going too far and tell them no.

Changing your behaviors around people causes problems as well. Do your thing, but under no circumstances should you do anything other than be open with your feelings on the situation. Do not hide it, do not hesitate to tell them to say no. Language works better than you'd think, and if they press on despite that, feel free to consider it sexual battery and handle it as you would any violent threat.



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16 Jul 2014, 10:14 pm

HisMom, I've got a daughter around the same age. And no, I'm not taking the Camille Paglia route, because I don't see that it's a healthy way for her to grow up.

She hasn't got AS, but that doesn't mean she understands boy culture. Like most girls that age, she's deeply naive. So we talk (even when it embarrasses her). And I tell her what's okay, and what's not okay, and what to do if a boy does xyz to her. And I let her know that these are things that do happen, though they won't necessarily happen to her, but that here are situations where they're more likely to occur. Parties with alcohol. Cars crammed full of boys in places where she can't get home easily. Houses where there aren't any parents around. But I absolutely do not make it her responsibility to hide, or to be paranoid about whether or not a boy will decide she's leading him on.

I also talk to her about how girls pressure each other to go farther, sexually, than they really want to. Daring each other and looking at it as a sort of growing-up ritual, who's more experienced. She's already had a good education in avoiding bullies, but it's a kind of bullying she's new to. Right now it's to do with confessing crushes. She already feels that something's wrong with the dynamic; it helps to name it.

But yeah, I'm not teaching her that she's to go around nervous about putting out "wrong signals".



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16 Jul 2014, 10:30 pm

tarantella64 wrote:
HisMom, I've got a daughter around the same age. And no, I'm not taking the Camille Paglia route, because I don't see that it's a healthy way for her to grow up.

She hasn't got AS, but that doesn't mean she understands boy culture. Like most girls that age, she's deeply naive. So we talk (even when it embarrasses her). And I tell her what's okay, and what's not okay, and what to do if a boy does xyz to her. And I let her know that these are things that do happen, though they won't necessarily happen to her, but that here are situations where they're more likely to occur. Parties with alcohol. Cars crammed full of boys in places where she can't get home easily. Houses where there aren't any parents around. But I absolutely do not make it her responsibility to hide, or to be paranoid about whether or not a boy will decide she's leading him on.

I also talk to her about how girls pressure each other to go farther, sexually, than they really want to. Daring each other and looking at it as a sort of growing-up ritual, who's more experienced. She's already had a good education in avoiding bullies, but it's a kind of bullying she's new to. Right now it's to do with confessing crushes. She already feels that something's wrong with the dynamic; it helps to name it.

But yeah, I'm not teaching her that she's to go around nervous about putting out "wrong signals".


I am not going to teach my daughter to walk on eggshells and be afraid of sending out the wrong signals to every boy within a 20 mile radius, either, but I am *definitely* going to tell her to be EXTRA careful around a boy who is SPECIFICALLY showing an "interest" in her and whom SHE is SPECIFICALLY worried that she is leading on. When it gets to specificity, then I will want her actions to be very pointed and specific, too. I would want her to be upfront with the boy in question and make sure that there is no room or scope for any misunderstanding, whatsoever. Knowing my daughter's personality, I think the direct approach will probably work best for her, too.


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O villain, villain, smiling, damnèd villain!
My tables—meet it is I set it down
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain.
At least I'm sure it may be so in "Denmark".

-- Hamlet, 1.5.113-116


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17 Jul 2014, 10:42 am

My mom just had to have a talk with me about this at the age of 28. She told me what is not acceptable for a guy to do to a woman when he touches her. I decided to just have a rule about no man touches me and I don't care what kind of touch it is. Also no helping a guy out if I don't know him. No friendship if I don't know him.


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17 Jul 2014, 10:56 am

Aspendos wrote:
I get that someone might not know whether they are *being* led on, but how do you not know whether you are leading someone on? Leading someone on, to me, indicates that you actively encourage them, but really aren't interested. You would know if you did that. If you're worried your friend might misinterpret your intentions, tell him that you're only interested in friendship.



"I got led on by them" sounds like a excuse to justify their actions or their mistake of misreading them and not take responsibility.


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AmethystRose
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18 Jul 2014, 12:59 pm

starkid wrote:
AmethystRose wrote:
The OP clearly stated that she's concerned about unintentionally welcoming unwanted sexual advances by "leading a man on," which can absolutely happen. It happens every day. Shyness and anxiety coupled with friendliness looks like flirting; it looks coy.

The definition of being "coy" is: Making a pretense of shyness or modesty that is intended to be alluring.

So if a girl seems to be acting coy and a guy decides to test the waters with some gentle touch somewhere harmless, and the girl seems OK with that touch, then he will see this as confirmation that she's just being coy. He's going to think he can get further. This can quickly escalate.

Also, let's not forget that we're in an autism spectrum disorder discussion forum, not just a "woman's issues" forum; you think a person with ASD would be in no danger in the situation I just described? You're taking the OP's question out of context and telling her things that can get her into real danger.

By the way, the OP is 14 years old, FYI.

Thank you.


I think that you don't understand my point because nothing in this post of yours appears to have any connection to anything in the post of mine which you have quoted. I neither stated not implied that having one's actions misinterpreted was dangerous or not; I merely stated that such actions do not constitute flirting (or "leading someone on") if they are not intended as such. This is a clarification of the meaning of words. I do not see how a linguistic clarification can endanger anyone.


You misunderstood my rhetorical question; I was pointing out the danger to you, because you seemed oblivious to it.

starkid wrote:
Furthermore, since you brought it up, it's not the misinterpretation of OPs actions that is dangerous, it is the inappropriate physical actions men that poses the danger, and your apparent attempt to place the burden of responsibility on the OP for this constitutes victim-blaming. A respectful response to the assumption of flirting would go no further than an attempted kiss at the most, and a more aggressive physical response than that has nothing to do with flirting, misconstrued or otherwise, and would therefore not be the OPs fault. No one "leads someone on" to harm them; this is always the fault of the perpetrator.


There has to be a victim before the victim can be blamed; I'm talking about prevention here. And at no point did I say that it would be the OP's fault if she made a guy think his advances were welcome. All I said was that it can happen, and it can lead to really bad things. Awareness is extremely important, and an understanding of non-verbal communication in sexual situations is VITAL to growing up.

This has nothing to do with who's fault it is. This has to do with learning how to navigate a the complicated world of human sexual interaction, and how to express what's really felt in a way that outsiders can understand in order to avoid being taken advantage of or getting hurt. Arguments over semantics are inappropriate to this thread.



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04 Aug 2014, 7:48 am

Hi guys!

Reading through this, and I feel like I need to share something that happened to me a few years back.

I am not diagnosed with autism, but I can relate to many of you who have been diagnosed. One particular problem I have is when I talk to guys, I get really shy and come across as flirty. This has caused many awkward conversations to the point that I mostly avoid guys in general. I'm getting a lot of pressure, though, from family and friends to settle down and find a husband, but it's not that easy when I can't even talk to them like a normal person (gahh!). Uh...sorry, just needed to rant for a bit. lol

Anyway, one day at work a guy comes up to me and says that the only reason he comes to my store was because he was working up the nerve to ask me out. Aww, that's sweet, I thought. Normally, I'd just say I wasn't interested, but due to pressure from family to "meet someone", my own desire to find someone to connect with, and the fact that he did seem to be a nice guy, I agreed to meet him for coffee after my shift. I deliberately picked a public place because the women in my family have a history of naively trusting the wrong guy and getting into bad situations. I have been warned many times.

We met at a local coffee shop and talked for awhile, and decided to see a movie together. There was nothing in theaters we were both interested in, so he suggested that we go to his place...

*alarm bells*

Yeah...I ignored them. I did clarify that we were ONLY going to watch the movie. I just wanted to hang out. That was all I was interested in. Oh, yeah, sure, he said. Just the movie.

He wasn't interested in the movie.

You know, I was so proud of myself for stepping out of my comfort zone and attempting to Be Social with someone I just met. This is what normal people do, I told myself. There's no need to be afraid of this. I was cautious, of course, but I told myself to just go with it. So when he said, "why are you sitting way over there? Come sit next to me," I ignored the siren in my head and said, "Um...okay."

When I watch a movie, I get really into it, to the point of being really annoyed when someone is talking. He kept talking. I think he was trying to flirt some more, but I wasn't paying attention. It got to the point that I finally said, "I thought we were here to watch the movie?" That shut him up for about ten minutes. lol

I don't remember why, but we gave up on the movie about halfway through. I wanted to watch it, but I think he was bored. We ended up downstairs (where he had video games! I didn't say anything, though, 'cause I thought it would be weird...). We talked a bit more. We actually had a bit in common coming from a religious background (and the video games...which I still didn't mention). I was starting to feel a bit more comfortable. He wasn't, though, and went to the fridge for a beer. I declined his offer of one (alcohol makes me sleepy). We continued our conversation, but he started to get flirty again. Somehow, he managed to get his hand under my shirt. I said NO and pushed back and...he looked really confused. I suddenly realized that my weird brain had been sending him mixed signals. I decided it was time to leave. The not-stupid part of my brain had decided to drive separate (yay), so I headed for my car. He asked for a hug first, and I reluctantly accepted. "Can I kiss you?" he asked.

My First Kiss was at 19 when I was cornered in the back room by a co-worker who mistook my shyness for flirting. It wasn't a pleasant experience.

I really didn't know what to say to this guy. At least he asked me. "Uh...no. Sorry," I replied.

Then I walked to my car and drove home.

I thank God that he was actually a decent person and not someone who would take advantage of a naive young woman alone with him in his house.

And...this is longer than I expected. Sorry! :oops: Thanks for listening.