Concerned mother seeking answers about daughter's condition

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Hello,

I share this hopeful someone could help me to help my daughter. I feel like I failed her as a parent to push her into the world rather than have her diagnosed early with Aspergers. She now has a lot of different issues that I am not sure are linked. But the problem is I don't know if she is exhibiting Aspergers traits. The concerns/red flags are as follows:

- was introverted as a child. Would hole up in her room all day. Didn't want/need friends. Her father and I had to check on her to see if she was OK as she wouldn't even come out for meal times like I assume regular children do without a second thought.

- didn't mix well with others at school. Was bullied for being weird. She always told me she felt weird and out of place but didn't know why. She developed body dysmorphic disorder in high school and missed a lot of school. Hated sports, hated school camps. She didn't mix well with groups. Had one or two close friends but felt socially inept.

All these things I shared with my friends and relatives who said it was a phase she would grow out of, that she was just shy, etc. except she's not shy. She is very capable of having conversations and nobody else calls her shy, either. Put it this way: If she IS shy, she overcompensates for it.

It wasn't a phase she outgrew. She's 28 and has no life. She has panic attacks, struggles to leave the house alone though no trauma has ever happened to her, she's eccentric and describes herself as weird and others describe her as weird. She uses big words few people know the meaning of. Her expressions with others are strange- she looks fearful like a deer caught in the headlights. She punctuates a lot of sentences with nervous laughter. She makes odd gestures with her hands when she's nervous or excited. She's never been in a relationship and keeps telling me she's not enough for a person.

She saw a psychologist who suspected Aspergers and said she was quirky. But she also said Aspergers people can't detect sarcasm and peoples expressions and are more tactless than others whereas my daughter speaks sarcasm and is more on the empathetic side.

When she's overstimulated she flaps her hands around. What someone considers ordinary manageable tasks like going to the grocery store my daughter flaps either from stress or excitement. I've caught her rocking back and forth in her bed while watching TV or listening to music or chatting on the phone.

She only learned to drive at 27 and I've seen her flapping around in the car before she drives away. The flapping definitely seems to be a response to stress, anxiety and excitement.

When she can't flap (like in front of somebody) she tenses up and I can tell she's stressed or excited to be talking to somebody. In fact she places huge importance on others in that she will pace and flap after a conversation with someone she really likes and says things like "I can't believe they talk to me." She has panic attacks when she has to leave the house but tells me they aren't all fear-motivated. She gets excited that she is living an adult life- what we consider the mundane it's a big deal for her to grocery shop on her own. I've seen her flapping at the checkout line.

I don't understand it and obviously she's my daughter and I love her and want to understand. Has she got Aspergers or something else? And what is holding her back from being in a relationship? She makes friends and then doesn't really want to see them, she feels pressured to say yes, and will pace and flap if she doesn't want to go somewhere and can't tell the person. She wants to be around people but then she gets mentally exhausted and wants to be alone again. She also exhibits paranoia - if someone in a cafe is laughing at the table with others it ruins her day because she assumes it's about her.

Are these Aspergers traits at all or am I on the wrong track? Thank you for reading and for any insight.

Yes the traits are very Asperger, especially female Asperger.
Have you or your daughter read Aspergirls by Rudy Simone? If you haven't, it's pretty cathartic.

"But she also said Aspergers people can't detect sarcasm and peoples expressions and are more tactless than others whereas my daughter speaks sarcasm and is more on the empathetic side."

Overall this is true of autistic people, but we vary in how we deal with it. Or if we even notice it.
I get by by assuming everyone is sarcastic unless they say "i'm serious." I wasn't really aware that I had this problem, or that this was a coping mechanism.

There are theories that autistic people are actually hyper-empathetic, but in order to deal with it, we shut down that sense or ignore it because it's too intense.

Also, there is a difference between empathy and theory of mind. For example, I have trouble knowing what someone is thinking or feeling. But once I know, I can feel empathy. Since there could be a period of non-empathy, I may look tactless or mean or something.

"Autistic people can't feel empathy" is a myth, and a harmful one - because then we are portrayed as psychopath, serial killer types. Wrong.

It sounds like nothing is wrong with your daughter at all. I'm glad she can deal with the grocery store! I hate it.

While the introversion is a standalone personality trait, the rest of the red flags do indeed signal autism/aspergers.

The docter made some (common) errors though, as stated before:

- can't detect sarcasm; while this is initially true, sarcasm can be learned: i myself am known to use it often, but my "strange" facial expressions make it hard for others to detect it in me

- can't read peoples expressions; facial expressions: indeed, but there are a lot more signals that a human gives off.
also, there is a difference between "not seeing" and "failing to interpret": for most aspies, the problem is the latter, which again can be learned and/or worked around

- are more tactless; i prefer "direct", "we" are less likely to tell 'white lies' and will often tell the blunt truth.
once again, it is possible to train yourself into curbing this behaviour.


for the behavioural part: i suspect is has to do with reading intentions, combined with paranoia and anxiety:
Never being sure if someone is interested in her, not knowing how to signal her own interest, fear of being abused...


in short: yes, it is very likely that your daughter is on the spectrum, but remember that noone here is liscenced to actually diagnose (and even if we were, it's nearly impossible over the internet).
You have reached a deep well of information though, any questions you might have can be safely asked and will be answered

https://taniaannmarshall.wordpress.com/ ... -syndrome/

I would agree that this sounds very much like a female Aspie, and in fact sounds almost exactly like how I was during teenagers years especially.

Males and females often "exhibit" very differently so many women on the spectrum aren't going to act like the stereotypical robotic train-spotting Aspie male, but anxiety runs high so the best thing to do is just to continue being supportive. It can really help being reassured that you're not being judged badly by other people.

I agree that she sounds like a female Aspie, in fact she reminds me of myself when I was growing up, and I was diagnosed when I was in my late 20's as well. The reason we females aren't diagnosed earlier is that we don't have the stereotypical traits males do, and that it took a long time for experts to realize that females can be on the autism spectrum.

Thank you all for taking the time to read and respond. I have made lots of notes from your replies and it's invaluable help, thank you. I still have family members who think autism/Aspergers are the same and if my daughter isn't in her room in her own world and extremely isolated, can't participate in conversation etc then she's not. But what brought me here was I saw a film called "Mozart and the Whale" and noticed one of the characters was flapping while under stress and I've seen my daughter do that..

She asked her new psychologist if she could be aspie. The psychologist said "you're definitely unusual." I didn't think that was very nice. My daughter already struggles with her self esteem/self image. She took away from the appointment that the psychologist is a normal person and she is weird.

I'm interested in what causes the flapping behaviour. I talked to her about it and she said it's a build of energy but more excited energy. When she is afraid or anxious she paces instead.

My other question is are aspie girls more likely to have: anxiety, OCD, body dysmorphic disorder, etc?

And I want to be clear that I am not concerned that my daughter is "unusual" , just concerned that she was undiagnosed. And I certainly don't think her life will dramatically change because of a diagnosis.

I feel that her inability to read people and being paranoid and creating problems with boys in relationship where they are none is one of her biggest challenges because it hurts me and it upsets her too to see her on her own when she has had nice men around but pushed them away and sadly they went and dated other girls which only confirmed to her she was unworthy and unlovable or they would've stayed. Is it an aspie trait to overanalyse people's behaviour and read further meaning into things where there isn't any?

Thanks again

I can relate to that. I can talk people's ears off - and not just people I know, but complete strangers as well. I've chatted up cashiers while they're ringing through my stuff, talking about whatever I'm most fascinated with at the time.

However, too much interaction and I need to go and be alone for awhile to recharge. Plus, multiple conversations at the same time overwhelm me very easily, and I end up needing to get out of there.

FWIW, yes, she certainly sounds Aspie to me.

I really don't think you did her any great disservice by not getting her diagnosed younger. There has been a poisonous lot of stereotype and misinformation about AS even in the professional community for two decades. It is still only starting to get cleaned up; to benefit from help as a female, you almost have to be in a major metropolitan area (and then it's still a toss of the dice). Had you gotten her diagnosed fifteen years ago, it probably would have done more harm than good. She would likely see herself just as poorly as she does now, have no more skills than she does now, and have had multiple professionals tell her that she's disabled, and monstrous, and shouldn't even try. You would be fighting the same battle, up a bigger hill, with more baggage.

Professional help didn't get me a spouse, or friends, or a family, or any of the skills I have (no matter how shaky they might be). Being shoved out into the world (with support) got me those things. Getting up and trying and f*****g it up until I figured out how to do it right got me those things. BAD professional help got me suicidal, thinking I was an unperson, with agoraphobia and PTSD and possibly some brain damage from mismedication.

She can get them too. Start with the basics-- going to the grocery store, the doctor, the have-to stuff. Go with her, do a lot of hand-holding, and give her some way she can return the favor. It's not a failure or a shame-- it's a learning experience.

I'm not a professional, but I do have autism (namely Asperger's Syndrome) and I am in my mid-20s. it sounds like your daughter has a lot of autism characteristics. Her childhood experiences with bullying, social ineptness, and a lack of desire to have many friends sound familiar. Her quirkiness, use of "big words" (often called "little professor syndrome" during childhood, when it is more notable), odd gestures, and her tendency to pace, rock, or flap hands when stressed or excited are also traits associated with autism. I don't know if it is "an Aspie trait to overanalyze people's behavior and read further meaning into things where there isn't any" but I do this a lot and I think my tendency to overanalyze anything capable of analysis is due to my autism. Because we have difficulty "reading" people, we may overcompensate by overanalyzing what other people may be thinking or feeling and extensively worrying about what we said or did in a social interaction.

Does your daughter have motor clumsiness or a monotone voice? Does she get upset when her routine changes? Does she get fixated on a narrow topic of interest and talk extensively to others about it? One does not need to have all of these traits to have autism, but these are some of the other common traits.

In my non-professional opinion, the ability to understand and use sarcasm at age 28 does not preclude an autism spectrum disorder (ASD) diagnosis. Also, regarding empathy, I second budgiezilla's position. You may want to seek out a psychologist who specializes in ASDs and has experiences with autistic adults.

I am also interested in what causes the flapping behavior! I cannot figure out why I do this, so I can't speculate as to why your daughter does it. This behavior is often called "stimming" in autism circles. I guess it is comforting and a way that we autistic people release our stress. I would not "cure" my autism even if I could, but I could do without the stimming!

Finally, a diagnosis could be very helpful. You should read some accounts of the relief that adults felt upon being diagnosed with an ASD for the first time. I was diagnosed as a child and I was able to get the services and education that I needed to successfully transition into higher education and adulthood. As a young adult, having a diagnosis makes life a lot easier because I don't feel bad about myself or feel that I am "defective" and ought to be ashamed. Life is still hard and I get frustrated with my autism-related struggles, but I am lucky to have a diagnosis.

We should not be diagnosing anybody over the internet. Let's just agree that this adult daughter is suggestive of Aspergers, and should be evaluated by a specialist. I recommend either a psychiatrist (MD) or professional psychologist (Ph.D. or Psy.D.) so that the diagnosis is more likely to be accepted by Social Security. (I think you are in US, if not, then never mind.)

More than a diagnosis, your daughter needs therapy or supportive counseling to do the things that all humans do, learn to live competently albeit with supports if necessary. It will take a number of years for this to happen.

Don't try too much to influence her behaviors, such as socializing, leave that to her and her therapist. If anything, you need to be LESS involved in her life. (You might just be enabling her.)

I do see that you care a lot, and that's a plus. Your daughter can be happier, and so can you. Good luck!

Someone posted a link to Tania Ann Marshall's blog above, and I would also recommend taking a look at it. I am new here, I just found her forum recently. I am in my late 30s and self-diagnosed a few years ago after finding a post on her blog called "moving towards a female profile of Autism/Asperger Syndrome." (I can't post a link, as I am a new member.)

A lot of the things your daughter is struggling with sound familiar. I have always felt out of place and odd. I researched Asperger's a few times but never identified with the male profile. When I realized that I probably do have Asperger's, it was a bit of a shock but also comforting to know the reason I am different. It has enabled me to research a bit and try to find ways to improve how I interact with people. Your daughter might benefit from that as well.

Regarding your question about females with Asperger's being more likely to have anxiety, OCD, body dysmorphic disorder, etc- yes, there is a connection. I think the over-analyzing is also a common problem. It sounds like you are a good mother, I hope you do not blame yourself. I personally never received any support and I made it, and it sounds like you care about her very much. I would note that though I am still quirky and have a hard time making friends, I am happily married and have mostly figured out how to "do" life. (My husband is a bit quirky as well, so it works out.) I hope your daughter can find someone to help her with some of her anxieties (that is a tough one) so that she feels a bit more comfortable.

This is another good post you might like to read on "the family funget" called "10 things I love about Aspies" that was written by a family member of someone with Asperger's and talks about some of the positives. Best of luck

I'd get a second professional opinion....it sounds very likely its aspergers/ASD. I mean based on the following

Sounds like they are too much of a stickler on common stereotypes vs what is actually in the DSM. I have asperers and I can detect sarcasm and even use it myself, though sometimes I can miss it due to taking things a bit literally so thinking they are serious its a stretch to say all with aspergers can't detect sarcasm...its more different levels of struggling with it.

Also I can detect expressions, but it can be somewhat difficult in real time....or I may attribute it to the wrong thing. But if someone gives me a paper with pictures of different facial expressions I do know what the different ones indicate. Not really sure what they mean by tactless but again its probably more of a streotype than fact that applies to all with aspergers.

She'll have a hard time getting a diagnosis at this age. But she should pursue any avenues of assistance. I would recommend a psychiatrist rather than a psychologist. This is not entirely because psychiatrists can prescribe medication while psychologists can't; but rather, because psychiatrists have been exposed to more education and have more tools in their kit. I presume that she is having some difficulties functioning because she has sought help. The path through the mental health system is often arduous, but just accept that it's a long road.
As her mother, you should focus on supporting her the way she is rather than attempting to adjust her behaviour (if that is what you are doing, I don't know.)
Does she have a job?

'Unusual' isn't a bad thing. I can see how someone who struggles with self-esteem could take it wrong, but it's really not an insult. Plus, from what you've said about her here, it's an accurate description.

Not necessarily the case, with history of childhood.