pressure to see yourself as trans?

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Hi,

I haven't been here for a while and in the meantime the whole trans thing has blown up. I'm seeing surveys of detransitioned transmen who are disproportionately autistic, and I'm seeing reports that autistic people are targeted by pro-trans arguments. My own experience as an autistic woman is that I have a weirdly mixed-sex brain but that I'm still a woman, and there would be no point in trying to be a man. But when I was younger, I would have been vulnerable to messages that transitioning would have helped me. It wouldn't have, but I wasn't as sure of myself, then.

Is there a need for older, more experienced autistic adults to talk about trans vs autism? I really don't think people should be taking hormones or going under the knife because they don't fit in. Having an androgynous brain is not the same thing as "really" being the opposite sex.

I was wondering if a youtube video might help younger autistic women.

You should not feel pressure to do anything with your body. You should free to just be you.

Gender dysphoria is a real thing, but I think many are confusing personality with dysphoria. Trans people are concerned about this too, and quite rightly.

The politics around this currently is bit absurd.

Gender dysphoria tends to come with sexual dysphoria as it relates to the physical. If this wasn't the case it wouldn't be as big of barrier as it is. Dysphoria is not the easiest thing to deal with and I have every respect to those have it and wish them the best whatever they choose to do. This idea that gender has nothing whatever to do physical sex, is a form of new think. It is not the same, but obviously related. If that wasn't the case it is no different from personality. Anyone can have whatever personality they want.

Where people say they are "unicorn gender" or "grey gender" what they really mean is they have this personality that is somewhere in between masculine, feminine or neutral. There are infinite potential personalities not 23 or whatever arbitrary number they choose. Some are even trying to legislate this. They are clueless about how individual rights work. There is nothing profound about it, doesn't require recognition any more than any other personality traits.

There needs to be a sensible discussion about gender, becuase the people dominating the conversation, even thought they claim to be fighting for social justice, are very much illiberal and controlling. Not that different from social conservatives they decry.

There are even people saying that physical sex is social construct.

Just a heads up: Despite my identification, I don't wish confirm which is my physical sex or my gender and it shouldn't matter.

Physical sex matters when it comes to medical issues, including reproductive health. It also seems to matter when discussing whether physical sex matters or not, since it seems to matter a lot more to uterus-havers than not-uterus-havers. (I was going to write women and men but apparently those words don't mean anything anymore. ) The people who claim that gender matters and sex doesn't tend to be male.

I don't care which sex you are as far as this conversation goes, though. At least not so far.

Hmm bit confused by that. Who would claim that? Who are these males?

The pressure you feel is not coming from realists or pragmatists. It is coming from those involved in identity politics. Even the social Conservatives would want you to conform in a different way. Both are wrong.

The reality is sex and gender are not totally unrelated.

There are gendered behaviors, which are social memes. However there are behavioral traits which are not only present in humans but other mammals, and especially our cousins the great apes. Some behavioral memes may well act to amplify of these traits, whereas others may be simply a product of culture, and may not be present elsewhere with a different cultural history. These are motors not certainties, although some of the motors can be powerful.

There is a distinction between gendered memes and gender itself, even if this is not the same as biological sex. If gender had nothing to do with biological sex, despite ample variation, then it would simply be an arbitrary identity of little note.

Despite these trait and behaviors, there is plenty of room for individuality and variation. A lot of the gender politics really is about describing different personalities as if they were genders in their own right. We all have a right to a personalty but have no special right to recognition legally. The smallest minority is the individual, and individual rights are protected via freedom of expression. Special legal statuses and identities violate the very principle that these establish rights, namely that one person's rights cannot supersede another's.

Pressure can come from those claiming to be inclusive, but in doing so aim to define and pigeon hole, in order to prop up their social theories.

I used to want to be a boy for the longest time. I dressed like a boy when I was a kid, I played with boys toys and cried whenever my mom made me wear anything girly.

As a teen/young adult, I cut my hair, wore boxers, binded my breasts (not that I had any to begin with) and wanted to be referred to as Kris instead of Kristin. I'd fall back into wanting to be girly again, then back to a boy for so many years. I absolutely HATED being a girl.

It wasn't until a couple of years ago, that I was done trying to be a boy. I don't think it's attractive anymore, and I feel more confident being a girl.

I'm SO glad my parents weren't/aren't some progressive extreme left "hip" liberals who made me take hormones or worse, get surgery!

I think a lot of so called "trans" need to really think about changing their actual sex before it's too late.

Transwomen (#notalltranswomen) and left-wing men (#notallleftwingmenbutfartoomany) who say that transwomen are just as much women as other women. Even in a completely unbigoted world, women would still be at a disadvantage due to having children - I mean, they'd slow anyone down - so how can female reproductive issues be irrelevant? They're only irrelevant to people who don't have to deal with them.

I agree with a lot of what you said, and I don't personally feel pressure to transition (I'm too old, thank goddess), but I'm really angry at the autistic=trans? and trans=autistic? stuff out there. And it turns out I'm in the wrong forum for the woo - I found a bunch over in the lgbt forum. I don't expect anyone to talk to me over there, though.

I made a (probably not very good) video ("autistic vs trans" on youtube - I'm too embarrassed to link to it). To be honest, I'm glad to see so much common sense here.

LonelyRabbit, I'm really glad you sorted your feelings out before doing anything drastic.

I think it's normal for girls to want to be boys. Both Katharine Hepburn and Indira Gandhi dressed as boys and referred to themselves as boys when they were children, iirc.

This is why people should take time over any transition.

Hormone treatment comes with health risks attached and there are those advocating treatments to pre-teens, and this is intended to permanently alter their development.

As an adult people can make their own decisions, but doctors still have an ethical obligation to avoid harm and therefore need to be sure, which is why it was common place to do at at least of year of counseling before permanent transition.

Intersex individuals, which have rare are chromosomal disorders, can have health problems like increased risk of cancer, and this is something they have no choice over.

The majority of intesex identify as one for the two genders, and have anatomy predominantly in line with one of the biological sexes. Obviously there are exceptions to this, but these are rarer still.

If a young person show interest is gendered behaviors different from their biological sex there is no reason to panic, but at the same time there is no reason to assume they will need to transition.

Also I don't claim to know the answer, but is still disputed in the medical community the long term efficacy of gender reassignment. It is something that may be positive, but there is also a good chance it may not solve the underlying issue.

Are people really calling for giving children sex hormones? I haven't heard that before.

I've heard plenty of stories of families where the kid identifies as the other gender and the parents get them different clothes, haircut etc to support that. And I've heard about how, after some number of years, doctors may let those kids take some drugs that slow the onset of puberty, so they can wait until the kid gets closer to being an adult to make any decision about taking hormones.

http://thefederalist.com/2015/02/02/wha ... rans-kids/

I think that talking about one's own personal experience might help younger women feel less weird. I've always known that I think differently to other girls, but I'm not transgender. I can't really help transgender kids in any way because I don't relate. I wouldn't be bothered if I was either male or female. I really don't care. I'm just me.

I've tried explaining this to a couple of female friends, but they don't understand. They definately feel female. I know that they genuinely feel this way. They both have female birth certificates, so I'm not talking about transgendered people here. But I don't even understand what a woman who has a female birth certificate means when she says she feels female.

I was hoping other people might chime in before I made a comment. It's hard to explain. I just do what I want to. I have no concerns about how feminine or masculine that thing I want to do is. It doesn't matter to me.

Sometimes I feel abnormal because I can't really participate with enthusiasm with the enjoyment women have about things stereotypical women like. But that doesn't make me not female.

That's true, but it's also true that not all transgender people are binary gendered, men or women and nothing else.
Genderqueer people can and do have gender reassignment - I have. I am not a man or a woman. However, that makes gender reassignment no less life-saving, as genderqueers can and do have severe dysphoria, just as intensely as any binary gendered transsexual. Genderqueers / androgynous peoples also get a lot of crap from both sides for and against transgender rights for not being "real" transsexuals. It's true that being a bit in between is no reason to go having serious surgeries, as people do express a whole spectrum of behaviour, and autistics are more likely than others to be atypical with regards to how they view sexuality and gender. But that doesn't discount the legitimacy of the small number of genderqueer individuals who pursue reassignment, in my opinion.
Medical professionals do make potentially trans people jump a LOT of hoops, and it's to guard against what you've all been so awesomely rationally pointing out above - to make sure people aren't just unsure of their sexual and gender identities, or are traumatized by previous life, or will come to regret their decisions and have further problems later on.
The issue with transgender kids, and I've known a few, is the desperation that comes with going through the wrong puberty, whatever form that takes. It's a steam train - get to adolescence and kids start to see their bodies changing, every day making things worse, and they can't stop the process. This can be life threatening. Cases of transgender kids are treated with a great deal of delicacy though, often opting for hormone blockers / anti-androgens in kids, as this can still be reversed depending on how they develop, but it can stop the panic of their bodies changing in ways they can't handle, and are aware makes them less likely to "pass" as adults, or will cost them thousands of dollars and a lot of trouble to reverse in adulthood, when they could just be stopped from happening, and give them a bit more time to sort things out.
I'm also a bit unpopular for believing the connection between sex and gender. No they're not the same thing, but I believe they're connected, just from my own personal experiences. Sexuality changed in response to transition, and it has for others, too.
Another unpopular trans-related belief of mine is in accordance with the above - a tomboy isn't necessarily a transman, and a femme boy isn't necessarily a transwoman. Not conforming to gender stereotypes doesn't make someone another gender identity. Unfortunately some of the most overbearing people in regard to LGBT rights are people who are talking a lot of the talk, walking none of the walk.
Anemone - why should no one want to talk to you about the topic? You've been perfectly reasonable about it in this forum.

Anemone, I completely agree with you.

When I was young, I used to tell my mom that I would grow up to be a boy. I was very tomboyish and preferred playing with action figures instead of dolls or the game of "house." I had an older brother, and his toys and games always seemed so much more fun than the toys and games of my Kindergarten etc. girl classmates, so he and I bonded over that.

Of course, I grew up, and eventually realized I would stay a girl. Still, I always remained a tomboy, and was also a nerd. I never did become socially adept.

I read studies today that were completed in the last month that point to many autistic women having more "male-like" brains. Previous studies had also hinted at this, and more and more seem to be pointing toward this fact.

Part of the whole trans confusion honestly seems to stem from societal expectations vs. biological gender. I think it's hard for many brains to reconcile the fact that not every woman has to be a chatty Cathy obsessed with shopping and fashion and that not every man is impersonal or incapable of empathy or expressiveness. When people say they "feel" more like one gender or the other, it always seems to revolve around those sorts of "dissonances." But perhaps we just need to accept that there's something of a "range" of behavior between the two genders, and rather than demand that everyone fit into a stereotype, or go through a drastically life-changing surgery, that we just more or less live with the fact that some females have more traits associated with males, and vice versa.

(This is honestly how it always was, for the most part, and folks like me turned out okay in that realm. I think it's deeply regrettable that this has become so politicized, yet isn't that sadly how it is with most everything these days, it seems )

I'm trans myself, but I think it should be illegal for minors under 16 to go through any of the processes of medical transition.

Because, one of the cornerstones of ethical medicine is the idea of "informed consent." Since a child can't reasonably understand the ramifications of such a drastic life-altering procedure (hormones, surgeries, etc.), they can't give consent. It's the same reason we don't let children drive cars, or have sex, join the military, or take out a payday loan.

^ I agree that reassignment surgery and hormone replacement therapies should be reserved for when that person comes of age, but not that no assistance or intervention should be given to trans kids. There have been suicides because of this attitude. Anti-androgens and other hormone blockers are reversible if that person matures to better align with their biological sex in adulthood. But it keeps the pressures of severe dysphoria at bay, so that person can grow up at all.

This has been a very thoughtful discussion of the topic, probably the most so of any I've seen on social media/Internet forums. For such a hot button issue, people have been both very civil and rational in the discourse here.