Things I have learned in life about being female

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17 May 2016, 3:11 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:

I guess I'm just hoping that she doesn't think that most men are like those guys whom she encounters on her job. They seem like creeps to me, actually.

Thanks Kraftie. No I don't think most men are like those guys. I really don't know what most men are like, or even what some men are like. Some of the men I thought I knew best have done things that really shocked me and I feel like I don't even know who they are anymore. Maybe before I had a very naive view of what men are like. I've had my eyes opened to a lot of things, but I still can't make any broad assumptions about what men in general are like. I just don't know.

I feel like I have to be prepared for anything, even if it's only a few men who act aggressively or do hurtful things, I have to be ready to deal with it when it comes. I feel like - for me - that's a big part of what it means to be female in this world, to not know what is coming and have to be ready for anything. So the messages that get internalized are the ones that are the most negative.

wilburforce
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17 May 2016, 3:21 pm

Amity wrote:

dianthus wrote:

I do think there is undercurrent across the country of sexually inappropriate behavior, but the ways that people act it out are specific to different locations. For instance I don't see a lot of what I'd call street harassment, but there are tons of blogs, videos, etc. documenting it in other places, particularly NYC

Ah I see. Good thing that we can think for ourselves.

Quote:

Is there something you feel was presented angrily in this thread?

I care about this website and having an active women's discussion section, a year ago my posts in this sub forum commonly only received a male reply, and I'm glad that someone responded, many views but low responses.
I guess that's why I don't have an issue with a male presence here, I've many more memories of supportive replies than insulting ones.

Im a firm believer in education to break negative social cycles, men need to be educated about women's issues, and solving the bigger problems is much too important to be manipulated by angry responses, willburforce it's not about focusing on what should be, it's 'what is' that needs to be the starting point for change. No one learns jack about the topic when it's taught through fear, they learn to fear, that's all.
I could be angry as hell with men, and no one could question the validity of why. Lots of things shouldn't have happened, but they did! I practice not being angry anymore, it's not good for my wellbeing.

Quote:

I noticed that too, and I've noticed that in a lot of other discussions on this forum. It seems to be par for the course with certain topics, I'm actually surprised it didn't disintegrate into cat photos already.

Just baby seats for bikes, sorry about that.

Interesting that you read anger against males into my post. Thanks for telling me how I feel about men and demonstrating for the thread another way a woman's perspective can be dismissed--by telling her she is angry for no reason even when she's not. Also, it's not my job to educate the men of the world how to interact with women without being patronising and dismissive. Your tone policing is not a new idea, that women need to be "nicer" to men to teach them not to think we are lesser than them. It's still BS.

I responded the way I did because I didn't think 0's response was appropriate in this thread, it was an unprompted and very LONG lesson in how to use CBT to "fix" the female OPs "incorrect" thoughts--which is patronising and dismissive, considering this forum and why the OP was placed in this forum, as well as the contents of the OP. If you read anger into my humorous response that's on you and your misinterpretation, not on me. I prefer to laugh at such men who are resistant to learning about women's perspectives, because I don't have the time or inclination to hold everyone's hand while they learn to catch up with a progressing world full of equal humans. Humour can be very effective as a tool for teaching, and it's also all I have the patience for.

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Amity
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17 May 2016, 3:40 pm

Willburforce wrote:

...
Interesting that you read anger against males into my post. Thanks for telling me how I feel about men and demonstrating for the thread another way a woman's perspective can be dismissed--by telling her she is angry for no reason even when she's not. Also, it's not my job to educate the men of the world how to interact with women without being patronising and dismissive. Your tone policing is not a new idea, that women need to be "nicer" to men to teach them not to think we are lesser than them. It's still BS.

I responded the way I did because I didn't think 0's response was appropriate in this thread, it was an unprompted and very LONG lesson in how to use CBT to "fix" the female OPs "incorrect" thoughts--which is patronising and dismissive, considering this forum and why the OP was placed in this forum, as well as the contents of the OP. If you read anger into my humorous response that's on you and your misinterpretation, not on me. I prefer to laugh at such men who are resistant to learning about women's perspectives, because I don't have the time or inclination to hold everyone's hand while they learn to catch up with a progressing world full of equal humans. Humour can be very effective as a tool for teaching, and it's also all I have the patience for.

And thank you for twisting my words, I so needed another woman to invalidate how I feel when I read your posts... blah

I wont do that dance with you, I actually care about the bigger picture and don't care for your tactics.

You make valid points but your posts feel to me as quite angry, not just here but all over this site, I think you are doing a disservice to something you advocate for. Its something I also advocate for, my methods are more long term.

Last edited by Amity on 17 May 2016, 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

OliveOilMom
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17 May 2016, 3:44 pm

dianthus wrote:

YippySkippy wrote:

Quote:

When I was single I worked construction,did bounty hunting and several other male dominated things and I still never experienced the expectation that she describes. Sure there are rude people but it's not something that is a way of life. I don't doubt she learned it, but I do doubt that it's what was meant to be taught. Perception.

I think there's a big difference between the jobs you did and sales. In sales you have to remain friendly at almost all times, and there's a certain vulnerability inherent in that. Salespeople in general see peoples' dark sides more often, and for women that includes misogyny.

I agree. Since I've been in this line of work I have been shocked by some of the behavior I've seen. I mostly call on convenience stores, and things do vary a lot from one store or neighborhood to another. But in general it's kind of like the wild west, anything goes and I never know what to expect when I walk into a store.

And it probably goes without saying, but in case it doesn't, a lot of c-stores are run by foreigners. Some of them are really wonderful people to deal with and they are really nice and respectful. But then others do come from cultures that are known for blatant misogyny, and it definitely comes across in their behavior.

However it's more often the customers who tend to bother me, and it's not only in convenience stores that I work in, I notice a lot of the same behavior in other stores I shop in, at restaurants, just being out in public in general.

I've been doing this long enough to know some of the behavior I have seen is very neighborhood-specific, or clientele-specific. So I can see how someone who lives around here and only frequents certain places might be oblivious to some of it. It could be the same in any other part of the world, maybe less so in cultures that are more homogeneous than the US.

I cover an area with probably a 60 miles or so diameter, several counties, over 150 stores...and then because I visit different areas I do my own shopping at a lot of different stores. How many other people who are commenting, actually frequent well over 150 different public places on a monthly basis? Try that, and do it on a monthly basis for several years, and then come back and tell me "I don't see it."

The way you phrased it implied that you were speaking of the southern culture were you lived so it would be an overall experience for everyone. You didn't say that it was your experience going to 150 particular locations every month and dealing with 150 particular people many of which come from chauvinist societies. That certainly makes more sense. You may be one of a very few people who frequents all of those particular locations monthly, and different. I had assumed from your post that you got it from everywhere, all the time, all your life, in the South. I did not interpret it as "I work around as*holes" which is what this post tells me.

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dianthus
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17 May 2016, 3:50 pm

Amity wrote:

I don't know what the topic was but is it possible that other women didn't respond because of the male presence?

androbot01
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17 May 2016, 3:55 pm

hurtloam wrote:

I genuinely think that if 0_equals_true was a woman his breakdown would have been accepted here.

I went back and re-read it. I think it would be equally patronizing coming from a woman. The irony is that it is 0_equals_true who is making assumptions.

hurtloam wrote:

After all they are always saying that society perceives that we shouldn't go out on our own at night because if we should be so unlucky as to get raped then it will be our fault. That's a perception. As women actually we should be able to be free to go wherever we want with no fear.

I go out after dark all the time, no one has bothered me yet.

dianthus
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17 May 2016, 3:59 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:

The way you phrased it implied that you were speaking of the southern culture were you lived so it would be an overall experience for everyone.

It is my experience of what it's like to live in the South, and I did not say nor imply that it applied to everyone, in fact I gave the disclaimer that it may be different for other people. I simply suggested that the difference may be due to where I live. I was not just writing about my job experiences, but my life experiences in general, and I live in the South so this is my experience of what it is like in the South. Your mileage may vary.

Quote:

I did not interpret it as "I work around as*holes" which is what this post tells me.

Either way, that is your interpretation, because I did not say that I work around as*holes.

Amity
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17 May 2016, 4:07 pm

dianthus wrote:

Amity wrote:

I don't know what the topic was but is it possible that other women didn't respond because of the male presence?

That is definitely a possibility after they replied, but there were many views before the male response though. The womens forum was a ghost section then.

YippySkippy
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17 May 2016, 4:08 pm

I just want to know why the only restaurants in the South are Cracker Barrels. :lol:

0_equals_true
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17 May 2016, 4:21 pm

Nobody has to take my advice, it is technique I use myself and would offer to anybody and have done in the past. Take or leave it. Maybe I shoudl have just recommended CBT and left it at that.

Also there is no diagnosis needed, it is not required and not given. You can work with any statements or thought processes. In order to do CBT you have to be able to practice it. So anybody can do it.

I firmly believe everyone should question things, both what they are told and the beliefs they hold.

The sentiment I'm getting from some is some how becuase you "experienced something" that what you think about it is somehow the same, and it shouldn't be questioned.

This conflation between experience and belief is what I take issue with. Of course naturally people are going to have bad experiences and there are bad people, however we need to know for sure what is going on at any time before rationalising out beliefs.

This is like the differnce between old rationalist and modern empiricists.

People have said some questionable things on forum, such on the L&D section. They have often used "this [just] my experience" to justify it, that doesn't mean their questionable idea is off limits from criticism. Neither have people taken it as such. So why is this different?

I do think there are things in the the OP that could/should be questioned, and I don't think "just my experience" is a a good enough reason for belief not to be open to discussion. Whether advice is wanted or not doesn't matter because other people are open to influence too.

If the objective is to unlearn, how is that possible if you can't question?

I'm not saying there nothign valid there, it is just very cut an dry, not nuanced.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 17 May 2016, 4:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dianthus
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17 May 2016, 4:26 pm

wilburforce wrote:

I figured I was the one being perceived as angry, just for starting this thread. lol Yeah I notice this has become a theme around here, women who speak up in certain ways are labelled as "angry" (at a minimum). If these examples keep up, I won't even have to continue my list, because it will all be right here for display.

Message: If I say something that isn't "nice" I will be perceived as angry.

Quote:

Also, it's not my job to educate the men of the world how to interact with women without being patronising and dismissive. Your tone policing is not a new idea, that women need to be "nicer" to men to teach them not to think we are lesser than them. It's still BS.

I completely agree. Actually I think this is one of the oldest games in the book, women trying to be "nice" to men for whatever reason. It's been going on in the world for a long time, and it can be a useful survival mechanism sometimes if you are in danger. But in the long run, being nice to someone who is crossing a line just teaches them to keep doing it.

Amity
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17 May 2016, 4:41 pm

My responses in this thread were to understand your situation Dianthus.

My comment about manipulative anger, as I clarified was directed at willburforce, but if you choose to take it on as directed to the two of you so be it, that is your choice make of course. Emotions make poor masters, but good slaves.

Be well

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17 May 2016, 4:47 pm

0_equals_true wrote:

...The sentiment I'm getting from some is some how becuase you "experienced something" that what you think about it is somehow the same, and it shouldn't be questioned.

This conflation between experience and belief is what I take issue with. Of course naturally people are going to have bad experiences and there are bad people, however we need to know for sure what is going on at any time before rationalising out beliefs. ...

I think the assumption you are making is that the OP is in need of CBT. That may not be the case. That's what I meant by listening.

dianthus wrote:

... I should never sit with a wide stance, because it might make me think I am whore, and it might take away from their precious leg room.

This is true in western culture, (and very annoying as keeping one's legs together is not natural for women either.)

Quote:

He can even touch me if he wants. He can put his arm around me, or pat me or slap me on the back, grab at my clothing or stand so close I can feel his breath on my cheek as he is talking to me. There is no natural reason why I should expect anything different.

I had a friend grab my ass in greeting once. I didn't say anything at the time as I was shocked, but later I told him that wasn't a good move.

Quote:

All aspects of my body and appearance, including particularly my hairstyle, my skin tone and color, my weight and the size and shape of my body, are open to any and all comment or question from other people, accompanied by pointed staring or gestures to highlight the aspects they are most interested in.

I think society does this to women. We are constantly objectified by illustrations of the female form.

dianthus
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17 May 2016, 5:11 pm

androbot01 wrote:

dianthus wrote:

... I should never sit with a wide stance, because it might make me think I am whore, and it might take away from their precious leg room.

This is true in western culture, (and very annoying as keeping one's legs together is not natural for women either.)

Whoa, did I write "it might make me think I am whore?" lol That's quite a slip.

I remember the first time I was told to keep my legs together, I was around 7 or so and sitting with my grandmother on a bench in a public place. I didn't understand what was wrong with it or why it would bother anyone.

It's really uncomfortable for me to sit with my legs together, or crossed, because of my lower back problems. I like to cross my ankles and have my knees apart, or else I prop my feet up on something whenever I can.

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17 May 2016, 5:21 pm

Amity wrote:

More tone-policing and telling me how I feel.

People like you make me feel very tired, not angry. If you want to insist on interpreting everything I say as angry, that is your prerogative. :shrug:

I am actually pretty self-aware emotionally for a person on the spectrum, through years and years of careful study and practice and the help of good therapists, teachers, and the way I was raised by my mother--so I know when I am angry and when I am not. If reading everything I type as angry renders you unable to appreciate my according-to-you good arguments, I hope you might try to see past your interpretation of my emotional state to objectively evaluate the content of what I'm saying.

She didn't ask for in-depth therapeutic advice from that commenter (and don't get me started on my feelings about the legitimacy of CBT as a therapeutic approach for people on the spectrum anyway, because that's another argument entirely), and to presume to the extent that he did in his attempt to be helpful struck me as both intrusive and patronising in the context of the forum and the OP. So I spoke up about it. Should I not have?

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17 May 2016, 5:24 pm

androbot01 wrote:

I think the assumption you are making is that the OP is in need of CBT. That may not be the case. That's what I meant by listening.

There isn't a lot of differnce between deductive reasoning and the techniques offered. It is a system of analysis for your thoughts and behaviors.

CBT is not something that has to be prescribed, there are books on it widely available. It is a technique you could apply to any thoughts, you from your own conclusions. The exercises goes further than described.

There shouldn't be a stigma around using IMO.

Also I did listen, and in the text was the sorts of patterns that are used as examples in CBT books.

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