Have you felt alienated/discounted by the autistic men here?

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Evam
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05 Jan 2016, 7:00 am

Yigeren wrote:

dianthus wrote:

I think in a situation like this, when you show greater sympathy and understanding to a person who is being insensitive, it comes across as being just as insensitive, if not worse.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I wasn't trying to be insensitive. I didn't find his comments bothersome. Yes, I feel sorry for him. He reminds me of someone I used to know that was very lonely and angry. I have myself been not very nice or have been insensitive when I was younger because I was lonely and angry. So I can relate to that.

I don't have any strong views on feminism. Maybe I just don't think the way most women do. I didn't feel invalidated by his comments. I felt like he was communicating feelings of being unwanted or unattractive. If he wants to think that it's better to be a woman who is harassed, I don't care. Maybe his life really sucks. How am I supposed to know?

I'm sorry, I just tend to feel sorry for people and want to make things better. I'm not on anyone's side, I want people to learn to get along.

That is a lot of sorries for saying that you prefer to relate to what you can better relate to.

Yigeren
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05 Jan 2016, 8:46 am

Evam wrote:

Yigeren wrote:

dianthus wrote:

I think in a situation like this, when you show greater sympathy and understanding to a person who is being insensitive, it comes across as being just as insensitive, if not worse.

That is a lot of sorries for saying that you prefer to relate to what you can better relate to.

I guess I am feeling sorry in general because people seem offended by my opinions and now I feel like it's better not to share them. It makes me feel bad.

I'm not sure why people are offended, or what I did wrong, but I am going to just not bother disagreeing with anyone anymore.

dianthus
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05 Jan 2016, 10:27 am

AJisHere wrote:

"Attacks on [a] gender" really shouldn't be a thing on these forums at all. It creates a negative environment that's likely to drive away people who could be part of this community. I'm sure someone will cry "free speech!" at that, but the owners and operators of an internet forum have no obligation to provide a platform for views if they do not wish to. Requiring them to would be an actual violation of their free speech.

I agree and you make a great point. This is a privately owned and operated website, not a public space. The admins don't have an obligation to protect anyone's free speech. However I get the impression that they would rather allow people the space to express toxic views and then face their own self-created consequences when other people call them out for it.

Theoretically that would create a system of checks and balances that encourages people to take responsibility for their own behavior, and to learn to refrain from doing things that create negative consequences for themselves. But obviously it doesn't work that way, least of all because most people here are socially impaired to begin with. And mainly because people in general tend to push the limits of whatever they can get away with on the internet (I guess, usually because they believe it's an issue of having "free speech.")

Quote:

What you've described to me in your posts is a hostile and (I'll say it again) toxic culture. People are going to pick up on that hostility and respond to it accordingly, and that will continue to happen ad infinitum until either it changes or becomes so vile that WP is avoided. Those are the only ways out, really.

Yes and that's exactly the pattern I've seen play out since I've been here.

dianthus
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05 Jan 2016, 10:53 am

AJisHere wrote:

It's on the current users of these forums to change this culture by keeping each other in check and fostering an environment in which people feel like they will be listened to, taken seriously, and engaged in actual discussions. That does not require people to change their beliefs, only to be less belligerent, dismissive, vitriolic and hostile to others' beliefs. It is much easier to change that in people who are already here than new arrivals. Established users doing this also shows good faith.

It just feels like an exhausting uphill battle to make any positive changes here, after awhile it takes a huge personal toll and there are greatly diminishing returns. And it's seldom appreciated by anyone else, or even recognized, in fact more often I've seen other people who try to make a beneficial ripple here just get a ton of criticism and trolling heaped on them for it. It just feels like, why bother.

As I see it the main issue isn't about gender - that's just one avenue it takes, but this happens across all kinds of discussions: it's about people needing to make it into a competition that their problems and suffering are bigger than anyone else's.

dianthus
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05 Jan 2016, 11:12 am

Yigeren wrote:

I don't really think of this as a feminist issue, although not so coincidentally it happens to be one, it's more about respecting the boundaries of people who have had traumatic experiences like sexual assault or harassment.

I think your reaction to this and a lot of what you are writing here about it is indicative of you not having good boundaries.

Yigeren
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05 Jan 2016, 11:29 am

dianthus wrote:

Yigeren wrote:

It's possible you are correct. I have been told I'm too nice to people. I also generally dislike arguing. But his comments did not offend me, perhaps because I don't think it matters whether or not he thinks that way. It does not change my experiences. And, sometimes I enjoy learning about people and discovering why they have certain opinions, especially if their experiences are different from my own. It's interesting.

dianthus
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05 Jan 2016, 11:33 am

Yigeren wrote:

But his comments did not offend me, perhaps because I don't think it matters whether or not he thinks that way. It does not change my experiences.

Well, it doesn't change anyone else's experiences either, in terms of the experiences we were discussing, but it does change our experience of having a discussion about it on this forum, having someone intrude on the discussion.

Even if you aren't bothered, can you at least understand and respect why other people might be bothered?

Jacoby
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05 Jan 2016, 12:40 pm

If enough people on the forum say that SJW stuff makes them uncomfortable, can they lobby the moderators to ban it? :roll: See how that works? You are not entitled to have people agree with everything you say, most people disagree with what I say but as I'm not thin skinned or insecure in my own beliefs I actually enjoy the exercise of challenging my views thru debate. I suppose people that have blind faith, essentially religious extremists, cannot tolerate any dissent to their divine truths.

I've interacted with a particular poster that claims to be female enough to see that she likes to snipe into the middle of threads and take offense to one sentence of one post not even in response to her then you respond like any normal person would she cries about how everybody disenfranchising her and apparently all women on WP or something because of some warped and twisted strawman she created for herself when in reality it simply because I did immediately concede the point. People that only see what they want to see will find it in abundance, most others don't care or notice. So whatever, I do not care and had decided to stop responding to this person but this harpy travels down to PPR to harass me personally in threads that don't relate to anything whatsoever so I find it very rich that this same person complains about all the relentless harassment she receives when it is her initiating everything. Self-victimization as a justification for harassment of other people, it's bullying and sign of a very deep-seeded insecurity.

Amity
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05 Jan 2016, 3:36 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Amity wrote:

My perspective is that if both sides want to argue, take it outside to PPR, that's what its there for, that's why it has different rules.

Eh, that's easier said than done, as it would require getting a mod to move the thread, and I think it was likely created in this forum to avoid dissent in the first place.

I am glad that there are women who raise these issues and that they can maintain a position in a debate, I don't have the necessary energy for the level of bickering required to make a point that the larger group will disagree with continuously.
Why do political issues relating to women have to be in a women’s forum and not in the forum created for political debate? Is meaningful ideological discussion only for the majority? Doesn't that contradict the purpose of an ASD forum?

Dox47 wrote:

Amity wrote:

This sub-forum took a long time to 'heal' from the last set of spats, and was unavailable for everyday female issues for Way too long.

Not sure I follow you there, even at the height of that period there were at most 2-4 related threads in here, which is hardly an overwhelming obstacle to other topics.

If a person needed to start a thread about a personal issue, why would they post it in a forum where the only active threads involved bickering? It would only attract trolling.
When the arguing abruptly ended, the womens forum was empty, no posts, or female responses to threads for many days at a time, for many months, not somewhere a woman looking for advice would start a thread.

Dox47 wrote:

Amity wrote:

The men in PPR don't help matters either, it would facilitate discussion if they were actually open to having a debate and not flattening all attempts at discussion through the sheer volume of opposing male responses to these topics.

You seem to be blaming men for having numerical superiority, in the politics section of an Autism board, where demographics pretty much dictate that there's going to be more men than women. Should we hold a council to pick a designated spokesman?

No, not blame, there just are more men than women. This isn’t a competition. It seems to me that PPR is less about debating politics philosophy and religion and it is more so about the majority affirming their own beliefs, which stifles growth and causes stagnation. In the short to long term no one benefits.

Dox47 wrote:

Amity wrote:

A marginalised group of a marginalised group needs a voice too, squishing every attempt at debate about their issues is about having an personal axe to grind, and not very sporting.

Who's squishing debate? People stake out positions and others attack or defend them, that sounds pretty standard issue. Like I said, there isn't a council of men (at least that I'm aware of), and PPR skews pretty liberal (we've done polls), so it's not like it's full of social conservatives mad at woman outside the home or anything like that, just the usual AS weirdness.

The squishing occurs due to the volume of opposing responses; the discussion is uneven, like it would be between a superstructure and an alienated group.

0_equals_true
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05 Jan 2016, 8:04 pm

People on the spectrum can have vastly different personalities.

Personally I restrict most of my rigorous debate to PPR. It something I take an interest in and take seriously especially political an social freedom. I don't wish to devalue any one groups experience, I'm keen, however to prevent rights from being eroded, or one person rights cannot superseded anther's. I am concern for the right of all, so I think that some things done in the name of equality are not actually working to that objective and are decisive policies.

A caveat is I do think personal experience should be taken into account, but the stick in the mud that I am assumes some confirmation bias in everyone when extending that to general rules and attitudes. This is not that I wish to devalue your personal experience or not think it has weight, simply that I think in terms of relativism. Just becuase we are both able to identify a red flower as being red, doesn't mean the way perceive red is the same, but also we can have perceptions of the same situation which are vastly different.

I have always found the resentment, particularly in L&D rather silly. I find any kind of entitlement silly. So if I was seen in that light then I have been misunderstood.

I do think that women on the spectrum have a unique perspective, which I value as much as anyone's and we all as individuals have an unique experience.

Personally I reject the idea that we are similar on the spectrum. Or at least what is similar is not the remarkable or interesting thing.

ASD is not the whole person, it is part of the mix.

I enjoy very much the folk on the forum, including you. Don't take disagreements personally, it is not personal.

wilburforce
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05 Jan 2016, 9:32 pm

0_equals_true wrote:

How is it not personal that in a thread I made a a guy stepped in to my conversation about feeling alienated on this website sometimes as an austistic female to talk about how I should feel validated by sexual harassment (something he admits is outside of his personal experience)--and when I and a couple other women tried to tell him that is not how I feel or how they feel (validated) when we are sexually harassed, he tells us we must be wrong because he has already come to the preconceived conclusion that sexual harassment must make women feel desirable and the feelings we are describing about our own experiences (feeling devalued and dehumanised after being sexually harassed rather than desired and valued) must be wrong because that's not how he imagines them to be? What is the appropriate response to that, what tone should I take and what words should I use to say "that's not ok with me, to invalidate my feelings about this experience I have had that you admittedly have not had yourself, and tell me my feelings don't match what you think they should be"?

dianthus
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05 Jan 2016, 10:46 pm

wilburforce wrote:

What is the appropriate response to that, what tone should I take and what words should I use to say "that's not ok with me, to invalidate my feelings about this experience I have had that you admittedly have not had yourself, and tell me my feelings don't match what you think they should be"?

Well, so far what I've gathered from both of these threads is that we're not supposed to be "unpleasant" about it, or argue or be confrontational, or piss anyone off, or show any strong emotion. I feel like I walked into a 1950's housewife meme where women are expected to be pleasant and nice at all times and get along with everyone no matter how they are acting.

Spiderpig
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06 Jan 2016, 9:09 am

Hopper wrote:

You wander into a thread in the Women's discussion forum, the thread itself asking if it is common for AS women to be taken advantage of. And you say this:

Quote:

There is a key difference. A constantly harassed woman needs to defend herself and learn to command respect, but there's distinct evidence that she is desirable. She doesn't have to worry that maybe she has no business dating. On the other hand, a man no woman gives the time of the day can't legitimately say what he undergoes is a problem. He may try to better himself, but this doesn't entitle him to anything, and there are no guarantees. If no woman desires him, they have every right not to want anything to do with him, and, eventually, it will sink in that he simply isn't anywhere near good enough to be desirable.

As the first sentence hints, despite the post being conveniently taken out of context, I didn’t just “wander” into the thread. It was a reply to other posts comparing the situation of sexually harassed autistic women with that of undateable autistic men. It takes a rather twisted reading to even conclude I’m saying the latter “have it worse”, because I explicitly said the undateable man has no basis to claim what he suffers from is an actual problem. It seems to be a habit around here to skip completely what others actually say, fill in the message with whatever is needed to demonize them, and then show how angry you are with them for what you put in their mouth and what you imagine them to think or feel.

Hopper wrote:

Now, we all have various problems here in terms of social appropriateness and the like. But - that is inappropriate. Don't do that. Just don't. If you don't understand why not, I will try to explain. If you still do not understand, simply accept.

What I see: so intent on having it worse than anyone, you try and turn the thread into a pity party for yourself. Someone who can't only have a bad lot amongst other people's bad lots, but whose lot has to be the worst. To keep it thread appropriate, you go so far as to say that being constantly harassed is actually indicative of desirability. The implication being that it should in some way be welcomed. In an attempt to make it look like you know harassment isn't a barrel of laughs, you throw in a nice bit of victim-blaming (which at least recognises there is a victim), about how women need to learn to command respect.

(And then any number of women point out that you're wrong, and you don't accept it.)

And, of course, you switch to your problem. You can't get a date. And you posit that as worse than being harassed. That is what you say. There's no need to distort it - it's all there. The condensed version of what you say is: "You know how bad harassment is? Like, women have to learn how to command respect and s**t. Well, guess what: I can't get a date. So who is the real victim here?"

Don't do things like that.

Whenever I want your advice, I’ll ask for it, thank you very much.

_________________
The red lake has been forgotten. A dust devil stuns you long enough to shroud forever those last shards of wisdom. The breeze rocking this forlorn wasteland whispers in your ears, “Não resta mais que uma sombra”.

Spiderpig
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06 Jan 2016, 9:29 am

dianthus wrote:

Again, I don't feel it's my responsibility to educate men who express really misguided viewpoints. I don't feel that it's my job to get them to understand where they are going wrong, or feel included, or get a chance or whatever else you are suggesting. I also don't think that it makes you the better person if you want to do those things.

I don’t feel it’s my responsibility to anticipate how others—including others I wasn’t even addressing, and whom I’ve already told I have no interest in discussing anything with them—will choose to twist my words to turn me into their favorite scapegoat and cater to them when deciding what views to share or what points to make, lest my attempt to use reason compel them to resort to personal attacks and demand censorship.

Spiderpig
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06 Jan 2016, 9:38 am

Dox47 wrote:

If you haven't seen it, the heart of this long running issue goes something like this; a guy is upset about his lack of success in the dating world, and angrily posts about it, perhaps using some unfortunately sexist language; women on the site see it and naturally object, but do so by attacking the guy personally with comments like 'well if that's how you feel about women no wonder they won't go out with you' and so on, which provokes a defensive reaction, more people show up and start arguing either side, and eventually the whole s**tshow gets locked, until the next angry guy posts... Alex decided at some point that this was an inevitable feature of the demographics of AS, and instructed the mod team to essentially let natural selection work, i.e. let people say bitter sexist things, but then reap the reaction they get. This makes a lot of people unhappy, and has been a bone of contention for years, leading to much wailing and gnashing of teeth, to say nothing of the occasional open hostilities when new people show up and run face first into this without knowing the background.

Ideally of course the bitter men who can't get dates wouldn't blame women and make angry posts on the board about how horrible they are, but since we don't live in that ideal world, recognizing that forming a shame mob to rain opprobrium on disabled people who are venting probably isn't the most constructive action either might be helpful. I'm not a bitter guy who can't get a date, nor am I a woman who's probably tired of seeing bitter dateless guys blame my gender for their problems, so I can't speak firsthand of either experience, but I do know a pointless pissing contest when I see one. I happen to agree with Alex that this is sort of demographic destiny considering the population we're dealing with, but I also understand that it's an extra burden on the women who come here and not exactly fair; I just haven't thought of a good solution, and clearly no one else has either.

It might be worth noting that, quite often, simply acknowledging, for whatever reason and in whatever context, that you can’t get a date is enough for others to “fill in the gaps” and decide you’re blaming women for your problems, you feel entitled, you’re a potential rapist and so on, no matter how much you try to make it clear this is not the case, as they don’t even seem to read anything that would clash with their narrative.

Yigeren
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06 Jan 2016, 9:59 am

I really can't believe people are still arguing about this. It's never going to end.

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