Why does society make it so much work to be a woman?!

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Do you think that the choices women make might have anything to do with the messages they get from society (especially from the media and advertisements), that they might feel pressure to do these things (wear makeup, do hair, nails, etc.) because of those messages which are incredibly difficult to ignore because they are constant and everywhere? Do you think those choices might have something to do with the fact that our society tells women in every way that they only have value if they are attractive and f***able?

Also, why are you telling us the reasons we make the decisions we do in a thread in the Women's Discussion forum? Isn't that a little condescending? It's not really productive, or welcome, that's for sure.

This was the next thing I wanted to get into in my thread about the messages I've gotten about what it means to be female. Knowing I will be treated differently based on my appearance, my clothes, my hair, etc. I got stuck writing it because it's just so overwhelming to think about. I think there are pressures put on men for how they look too, but different ones.

The pressures have more to do with how we behave than with how we look. I started a thread about what it means to be a man, and one of the biggies is that we're expected to not complain about the pain from our injuries or seek emotional support - we're expected to "man up" and not be a burden to others. Otherwise, we should expect to be pushed aside and ignored for being weak, wimps, or "p*****s" (their word, not mine).

But that's life. That's also why men die, on average, about four or five years before women of the same age, economic status, and ethnicity.

Not that I'm complaining, mind you ...

Yes...plus I've noticed sometimes there's a rotten double standard where women will complain about men not opening up emotionally, but then get mad and call them weak when they do.

Appearance wise it seems like men are pressured into more conformity than women, expected to dress similarly and not stand out from each other too much...men who take extra care with their appearance or have an interest in fashion are more likely to be perceived as "feminine" and/or homosexual.

Here's a great comedy sketch from Amy Schumer about the way women are judged for their appearance.

(warning, adult language)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPpsI8mWKmg

i never believed that
maybe that makes that i've not much to talk about with others
most men don't care that much
it's women who impose those things on themself and each other

commerce will hold this basic insecurety as the standard of womanhood

and the standard of insecurety is important

The way I see it, the question is who earns money or influence from it.

Who earns money from keeping women insecure about their looks? The fashion and makeup industries, which, by the way, are huge industries. Then comes home decor, another thing for women to worry about.

If you want to look at who earns money from keeping men insecure, we're talking about a lot of expensive consumer goods such as cars, sports equipment, technology, all of which signify social status.

By far the people who have the biggest stake in policing men's behavior are employers. If men don't take care of their health, they can be depended on to push themselves hard until their health fails completely, and then they can be carefully shunted out of their jobs. Men who worry about their status can be relied upon to neglect their families and tell themselves it's really the wife's responsibility.

Oh wow. I didn't know this. I better tell my GF that apparently she HAS to put make up and wear high heels. Perfume is the only make-up she uses and sneakers are her favorite shoes. Her best friend is also like that.

"Pressured into more conformity"? Hardly. Simply less pressure to "glam up". Why go all froo-froo when shoes, trousers, shirt, tie, vest, and jacket are good enough for a "formal" affair, and renting a generic tux is mandatory only if you're the groom, father of the bride, or receiving an Academy Award?

For men, the uniformity of fashion is because we simply don't have a need to stand out and be judged for our appearances - our accomplishments speak for us.

The only pressure on us is to show up, smile, and pretend to have a good time without getting obviously drunk.

^The thing is, women often put pressure on themselves to conform to society's often twisted expectations. My mum certainly did that for many years. But then again, you're older than me so maybe you know more than me and you're right and I'm wrong, who knows? It's all a matter of perspective and how you see the world.

Certainly pressure not to glam up though, for guys who prefer to do so...and some places more then pressure, I imagine if you get stuck in some back-woods bible belt town a guy could even face violence for that. Though same for women who stray to far from the typical in those kinds of places I imagine.

A couple of people I know did an experiment for a few months. We all made an effort to "dress up" when we went out shopping or for various services to see if it made a difference.
Dress up meant wearing expensive clothing, properly accessorized and more formal or professional than typical for that place.

I was surprised what a difference it made. People waited on you faster, more attentively and no hassles or upselling etc.
Of course it isn't everyone who treats people unequally but we all found that there was a drastic change in how well you were treated. The people that participated were not all women so there is some of this that happens to everyone but I think it does show how external that pressure to conform can be.

I think it is equally condescending to appease blanket statements, then exclude people from disagreeing from your view point. Some women have already said similar to what Fnord has said.

However theories are exactly that, theories. What does "society" mean in that context?

The premise is unsubstantiated, it hasn't been expanded further. That is what people are doing.. (edited).. it quite a complex issue. Memes happen for all sort of reason. So a particular trend can spring up spontaneously.

If you take the fashion industry's beauty standards, in those fashion imagines. This is not really to do with heterosexual males standard of beauty at all. If anything men don't fully grasp female beauty regimes and what is involved. However thing like high heals were originally men's fashion that women adopted. Mascara was essentially just mustache wax in the 1920s.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 31 May 2016, 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

I kind of get the idea of this theory, however I find it overly simplistic as a general explanation. It assumes that these people are only doing this stuff becuase of residual self-deprecation from historic conditioning, not becuase they feel they want to.

You can go back much further still, into pre-history and pre-culture. It is very difficult to find an exact catalyst.

Behaviours are more active and than that, not just left over instincts. When people talk of remnant behavior this has always been controversial subject (all the hunter gatherer stuff in the 70s pop psychology). Even if a behaviour may have been present in the past, it doesn't mean it is done for the same reasons today or fulfills the same role.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 31 May 2016, 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

I can smash out my hair & make-up in 10 mins or less of a morning now. I'm quite proud of my effort. I think it only got to that because I sleep in pretty much every day & end up running late for work. It is hard work maintaining all the lady things though... so very hard

In a retail setting, you expect to be treated differently based on disposable income and type of lifestyle they were targeting, but regardless it is not surprising.

But where is the moral high ground? I think this is a extremely grey area morally. It isn't a black an white issue. Much of it isn't an issue so long as the person is happy doing it.

All people have aesthetics that they prefer, and there are subcultures that identify a certain way. People find different things attractive and are more likely to interact with, that is a fact of life. You will find subculture that not want to deal with those that dressed up in that study, and won't treat them better.

Quite a lot of issues with appearance, is an internal obsession a cycle of behaviour that spirals. It is not something obvious externally. That is why disorders like body dysmorphic disorder, anorexia an bulimia exist.

Some of the research on that points to it not really being about appearance, or expectations thereof. It is more similar to an OCD type disorder. I have heard accounts from recovering anorexics both male an female that confirm this. They feel lack of control over their lives, and this is something that gives them a sense of control. It also often goes hand in hand with self harm, which obviously not done for appearance.

When we talk objectification, we can talk in an overly simplistic way, as if objectification is a mutual exclusive activity, were can't also appreciate the humanity in that subject. Often those that accuse those of objectifying are themselves hypocrites. Again this is a grey area morally, isn't cut and dry "wrong" as some people make out. If by wrong people mean only negative consequences.

It is a part of what we are, and my hypothesis, is this kind of preference an individuality, pre-dates culture, and is present in out cousins bonobos and chimps.