both genders are to blame for sexism

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1999 was eleven years ago, but the world hasn't changed that much since then. In reponse to those statistics, I'm very surprised that more women didn't vote 'yes'.

EDIT: Haha, whoops, I just realised I keep posting in the Women's Forum.

Also, the older women would not be allowed to have much say in what happens, they would likely get beaten if they refused to do it, and the mutilation would end up being done anyway. The older women themselves are seen as chattel, just upkeeping the traditions of their tribe in the only way they know how.

Culture and sexism

This is a huge, complicated topic, and it cannot be answered/resolved in such a small space.

I will add a brief amount of analysis to the function of culture, and how change occurs.

Cohesion for social group (family, society)
Provides roles for men and women in the family and society (possible origin of sexism
Provides rules of conduct for members of all ages in the society (may be based on sex/gender)

Now although no one sat down and created sexist/gender rules and posted them, there was a lot of unwritten stuff that people agreed to, or at least accepted for hundreds and thousands of years in may societies. they were practical and kept everything functioning smoothly and cohesively. This, however, did not mean these rules/roles were fair. And when some began to question these rules and roles, and became conscious of inequlatities, change could happen.

It takes a very analytical person to stand outside one's culture to criticize and analyze it, leading to changes, because it upsets the comfort level of the person doing the criticizing as well as the subjects of the criticism. Upsetting the applecart has consequences. It can mean ostracism, which can make people feel unwanted and fearful, and loss of social standing, wealth, citizenship, etc.

Now this would not bother an AS person so much as an NT because AS values individuality. Since most people are NT, losing one's social group would be distressing. Any person questioning rights and roles (Women, Minorities, etc,) were taking their chances years ago until they organized together to demand rights. Much of the rights we have now is a result of peoneering peoples of yesteryear.

We are so used to rights that the concept of feminsim seems quaint and even outdated.

But rights won can also be lost (eg abortion choice, and even voting) because people become complacent. Many rights won by voting in democracies can be lost because of voter apathy (gay rights/marriage), and in other non-democratic countries, through violence.

So are both genders to blame for sexism? The answer is not clear cut, because sexism is a consciousness of not having the same rights due to sex. Ditto to racism. Since both genders have the right to vote in Western democracy, and if these rights are enshrined in legislation which can be nullified by voting them out of existence, then yes, both genders are to blame. They are to blame because they chose to eliminate these rights via politics. The answer is more complicated in non-democracies.

A viable option, maybe, but "pretty good?" NEVER. GFM is illegal in most countries; even in most countries where it is practiced. Why? Because it's not a simple cut and done. Some girls (remember, this is done to children as young as 5, not to adults capable of consent or understading what they are about to undergo) are able to go to a doctor, be put under, mutilated with a scalpel, and recieve medical care after. Most little girls, however, have a very different experience.

She is held down by the women of her family while the woman who does the village's mutilations slices off portions of her anatomy with a rock, or shard of glass. She may have as little as the clitoral hood cut off, or she may have the hood, clitoris, and both sets of labia sawn off, or something in between; it depends on the practices of her particular group. She may be swen up or cauterised; again, no sterile needle or cauterizing tool. She receives nothing to block the pain. The tool used to mutilate her is not sterile. There is no medical care after, although some groups will allow a child who has just been mutilated to rest for a few days. Children die of blood loss, of shock, and of infection post-mutilation.

Even if she survives this ritual of horror, it doesn't end there. The vagina is often sewn up to a tiny hole, so sexual intercourse is agony; she can't refuse or her husband can throw her out. And can you imgine trying to deliver a baby? Women are ripped open in delivery and there's no wonder so many women die in childbirth in areas wher FGM is practiced. She will be unable to experience a clitoral orgasm, and since the majority of women do not climax from vaginal penetration, she may never experience pleasure in sex.

Have you ever seen the genitals of a woman forced to undergo FGM? In most cases, the cuts are ragged and covered in ropes of scar tissue. Don't talk about how FGM sets a woman up for a good life. What if her husband beats her, rapes her, or starves her? Is that so much better than the life you describe for a non-mutilated woman?

While I agree that having a husband is often better for a woman than not having one, that does not make FGM "pretty good" by any stretch of the imagination!

Barbaric cultural practice (FGM) topic

Thanks, Rose, for your enlightening post.

In this case, both sexes are to blame for this violence. But speaking out about it in certain countires where it is practiced can be punishable by death. There are many activist groups in the US who are commited to helping women to understand the horror, but they must do it clandestinely when they go to certain countries speak to the women who perpetrate FGM.

I have seen the pictures on the Web, and it is like looking at the results of torture, murder. A PBS Frontline rogramme that aired a while back featured interviews by immigrants from countries that practised FGM and who were victims of it. It is despicable that girls are subjected to this, and barbaric cultural practices such as this tend to die slowly.

one reason for why victims of discrimination internalize attitudes that harm them is the "just world bias" which occurs when people who have suffered or witnessed injustice do not want to beleive that such injustices could happen, therefore they blame the victim, or if they are the victims, they blame themselves.

unfortunately, internalized oppression is part of the reason why in certain places, violence against women is not stopped. i even read somewhere that in some third world countries which have the worst records of domestic abuse, more than half of women surveyed in these countries said that if a woman was beaten by her husband, it was her fault. and then we wonder why women's rights have made no progress in these places.

Last edited by petitesouris on 04 Jun 2010, 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

i am skeptical of the usual division of labor arguements which were used to justify gender discrimination, slavery, and caste systems. it is true that a thousand years ago, the role of women was that of a homemaker, while the role of men was to complete labor that required physical strength. these roles were crucial for survival. yet now, these rules no longer apply, since there are now more varieties of jobs, and since there is an overpopulation issue, no one feels obligated to have a large family.

What do you mean? He's my dad! As a teenager, I lived with my parents, like most teenagers do, right? So if I wanted a roof to live on, and not to be beat up, ofcourse I had to listen to him.
For you, it is simple. You say f**k YOU, and you leave your parents, and disobey them. But regardless of what you people think, it's not that easy in other countries.

As a teenager who could not work, what did you want me to do? Marry a man, so that he let me work? Whore. Then I would have no choice but to get pregnant with him, since we are now married. Whore. Got married because she was pregnant. My family name would go down the drain! Then I would have no friends, and my family would not speak to me, because everyone would see me as a whore!

No, my parents weren't from another country, I see why you ask though. That is just the way it is!

There were many children and teenagers that I couldn't be friends with. They were great people. But because they were poor, or because, say, the dad died in a war(?), or the husband/wife divorced, my parents wouldn't let me talk with them. As I said, they were great people. If they divorced, "of course", in my parents mind, that means that the woman too was a whore! Even if it is the man's fault that she got divorced (abuse, etc), it is always the woman's fault!

Anyway... They would hit me because I was friends with those teenagers.

They would tell me to hang out with the children of important people.
They did not believe me when I told them they were bad people, who at very young age, did things they shouldn't be doing, while my friends were good people.

Anyway...




You are amazingly spot on. That really applies to a lot of stuff, not just women *sigh*







Barbaric cultural practice (FGM) topic

Thanks, Rose, for your enlightening post.

In this case, both sexes are to blame for this violence. But speaking out about it in certain countires where it is practiced can be punishable by death. There are many activist groups in the US who are commited to helping women to understand the horror, but they must do it clandestinely when they go to certain countries speak to the women who perpetrate FGM.

I have seen the pictures on the Web, and it is like looking at the results of torture, murder. A PBS Frontline rogramme that aired a while back featured interviews by immigrants from countries that practised FGM and who were victims of it. It is despicable that girls are subjected to this, and barbaric cultural practices such as this tend to die slowly. [/quote]


That's very easy for you to say, because you are not from there! It seems like the people adamnant about both genders being responsible are ignoring what is being said to justify women's actions. They have no freaking choice. You are giving those women two choices: screw their life, OR, screw their life.

You don't have to tell me what it is like... I know. Probably better than quite a few of you.

How are both sexes to blame? Either she gets cut, or her life is completely ruined. She'll probably be beat, or killed, or raped, or all of that, if she doesn't get cut. Because she won't be able to find a husband, and her family doesn't want her as a burden.

Down goes her family name. Bam.

The older women have to do it to the young girls, because they believe that is what they have to do. They KNOW what will happen if she doesn't get cut.

They don't know there is anything wrong it with! They do it for men! Men rule; so they do things like that.

How about a young boy molested by a priest? The priest says that that is how the boy becomes a man. The boy believes him! How is that his fault!?

You are saying that she should not get herself cut, and suffer the consequences. Well. The consequences of not getting cut are much worse than getting cut.

are you sure that no one that performs fgm thinks it is wrong? not even most animals torture their own species like that.

i am sorry that your parents have mistreated you. life is hard enough without people being cruel. actually, life is good, it is other people that often make it difficult.

There is actually more nuance to this. As simple as the poll question is, it lacks that level of personal nuance that is needed to actually address the issue at hand. Gender is not a simple question, especially through a cultural prism.

Also I will be very honest, alot can change in a country in ten years, so the polls date does matter. Japan for example in the late nineties than it is today, there is a cultural shift embracing some elements of feminism on thier own. It is not complete, and it is very japanese, but when you have famous designers and directors in Japan claiming to be feminists and believe in gender equality, things begin to shift. Most of this has happened during the last ten years. From a recent survey I found Japans first choice in terms of a child is a female, this usually happens in cultures that begin to embrace gender equality. Usually you can see where a culture is going, not in terms of a blanket question, but more nuanced ones. Such as do you believe a woman should have an equal opportunity when seeking employment.

People are complicated individuals, and simple questions often do not tell the whole truth.

BTW, I have done demographic studies and poll construction. How a poll is constructed can determine the outcome of the answer, and it is sometimes best to include more naunced and culturally specific questions to get at more of the heart of the answer. This is not easy and takes knowledge, and in the case of a global polls it gets even more difficult.

I'd be very interested in the methods of that poll, seeing as how Switzerlandis actually on the forefront of feminist activism.

A recent poll from the Pew Research Center finds that gender inequality is almost "universally embraced".


http://pewglobal.org/2010/07/01/gender-equality/