Pro-choice or not(Women only)

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So why is murder illegal then? Presumably murderers are perfectly happy to cope with the moral implications of what they do. Using this argument, we have no right to stop them because they are living in accordance with their own morality.

As for the back-street abortionists, obviously they should be hunted down & punished in exactly the same way as all other murderers - surely much easier to do now in the "information age"!.

And never for a minute am I saying "Make abortion illegal" as a statement to be taken in isolation. There would have to be, as part of the culture change, a massive increase in help and support for women with unwanted pregnancies, as well as a radical change in the adoption system to make it much easier to match babies with prospective parents.

In some cases, "open adoptions", where the mother would be able to remain in contact with the couple and the baby throughout, may well be appropriate.

An embryo may be genetically distinct from its mother but there is a time periods during gestation BEFORE the brain is developed enough to become (electrically)activated and during that time the embryo is NOT and cannot be self-aware.
So it has the potential to become a person but what makes a person a person is a Functioning Brain.

My decision when I had the scare with my son was based on the timing. We had gone past the three months, but only just and to me, he had become a baby even not a viable life should he have been born then.

Its all in the timing.

My statistics are sound, or I would not have posted them. And yes, my figure does account for those where the mother's health is at risk.



PREGNANCY PREVENTION IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF BOTH SEXUAL PARTNERS.

Further, there are SEVERAL methods that are safe for women:
1. The rhythm method. Knowing when you ovulate and avoiding the fertile window.
2. Spermicides.
3. Over-the-counter devices such as the sponge.
4. Asking per partner to wear a condom, and keeping one with her in case he doesn't have one handy.

Used in combination (and especially if other birth control is used) these are highly effective. The four above are very safe. Yes, pills and devices like IUDs do carry risk, but so does having an abortion. And yes, even several combined methods can fail - there's only one 100% effective birth control, and that is to avoid sex.

Medical conditions threatening the health or life of a pregnant woman often arise as a result of a pregnancy, and are not pre-existing conditions. They also are not necessarily recurring conditions. Therefore, having tubes tied is absurd, and identification prior to twelve weeks gestational age is usually not possible. Moreover, the vast majority of abortions do take place before twelve weeks. In fact, most later abortions occur later because women face unreasonable obstacles in procuring services, which lead to later abortions which threaten their health and let folks like you scream about late abortions!

As to the safety of the birth control you outlined, those methods may be safe, but they aren't particularly effective. Moreover, no one is suggesting that people use abortion as an alternative to birth control. Abortion is a sad back-up (for some people - others have the baby, which is fine - it's their choice) when birth control fails ... and it does fail. Women who are pro-choice don't necessarily believe that they, personally, would ever have an abortion. They believe it is up to the woman, her doctor, and her spiritual adviser (if she wishes to involve that person). They do not believe it is up to the government to decide how they should handle their medical situation. I understand that you consider an embryo a person. Not everyone agrees with that. Not every religion believes that. No one is forcing anyone else to have an abortion, ever. But women who are pro-choice don't believe that they, or any woman, should ever be forced to risk her health or life to carry an embryo/fetus for nine months because she happened to become pregnant due to rape, birth control failure, or whatever the circumstance was. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have one. But if my daughter was (God forbid) pregnant as a result of rape, or in danger of risking her life to carry to term, I would support her decision to abort. In fact, following the teachings of our religion, if her life was at risk, I would insist that she have an abortion, even a late term abortion. If it's between the life in being (hers) and the potential life (the fetus), the life in being (hers) wins.

That's a very good description. I'd also like to stress my opinion that the fetus is a PART of the mother, not only in terms of it's location but also genetically and emotionally. It's something that starts and develops within you, and I don't think some of the people here understand the importance of that, they only see the potential of the fetus as becoming a seperate human like themselves.

I've always been 100% pro-choice, but when I became pregnant at 17 (by accident), I suddenly had very strong doubts about having one. It was no longer a logical decision, but an emotional one, as I felt a strong connection (not the best word) to this thing that was developing inside me, even though I couldn't physically feel it yet. It was always with me, and I couldn't stop thinking about what it would be like if I carried it through, what gender it was, what kind of personality it would have, etc. It is NOT a decision that is made lightly, and I suspect that the vast majority of women who have abortions are haunted by their choices.

The thing that makes me pro-choice is because I don't see abortion as murder. While a foetus is a /potential/ life, early in the pregnancy it's just a part of the mother. I think the current abortion limit is too high, because it's impossible to tell with the current technology when the potential life becomes a living being.

Sounds like your instincts were triggered by the hormonal changes that occur during pregnancy. Now technically speaking, How can a fetus be 'genetically part of the mother' when half of its genes come from someone else(the Father)? What exactly do you mean by "genetically part of the mother"?

I think that if you were raped or are a teenage mother, then I would agree with abortion, as you just wouldn't be a good parent to that child. Some people couldn't put their baby up for adoption (I know I would struggle), and that is another choice that people should have the RIGHT to have.
I think it's cruel if they choose abortion because their baby has a disability (Except if it's crueller for the baby to be born, as they would be in extreme pain all the time), as I would not want to be killed if I wasn't wanted.
However I think people should GET to choose and live with the consquences.
Plus I would LOVE if stem cell research was legal, as my uncle would be able to walk again.

I just meant that it was my child, physically (and the father's too, obviously). I guess it wasn't the best word to use. It's hard to describe the feeling when you suddenly realize the power of a new life starting within you, a person who in that way is a continuation of yourself.

[quote="zee]I'd also like to stress my opinion that the fetus is a PART of the mother, not only in terms of it's location but also genetically and emotionally. It's something that starts and develops within you, and I don't think some of the people here understand the importance of that, they only see the potential of the fetus as becoming a seperate human like themselves.[/quote]

Yes, this is exactly the point at which you and I differ.

The fetus/embryo/baby is NOT "part of the mother" and it IS a "separate human being" because 50% of its genes come from the mother & 50% from the father. Were it part of the mother, it would have the same genetic makeup as herself - FACT!

I also disagree that the self-awareness or otherwise of the fetus is in any way relevant. It is its GENES that make it unique, not its brain or its soul (if you believe in souls - I'm open-minded on this one).

Someone also stated above that "no-one ever forced anyone to have an abortion"! Really?? What makes you so sure of this? The whole culture of "abortion is legal so it must be OK" means that many women who on their own would never have considered such a thing are "persuaded" by their partner, family, employer & friends to have one, and then spend the rest of their lives regretting it.

In fact I personally know someone this happened to - she was in a very vulnerable place and just did what she was told - only to change her mind at the very last minute, but because she had already had the anaesthetic she was unable to speak, and the abortion went ahead. She has been haunted by what she did ever since, and still talks about the son she might have had more than 15 years later.

Soul or not, what makes a person a person is a functioning brain. Even if its genetically unique, until the brain develops enough to start working its just a pre-formed BODY. I cant see how an anencephalic baby can be a person since it has not
cerebrum and cannot think, feel, or experience.....EVER.

We are not talking about about anencephalic babies - that is a specific case and I have already objected to the fact that the pro-choice argument is derived from the specific to the general which is completely back-to-front and logically unsound. (See my very first post on this thread).

However - if the baby was so severely handicapped that it would be completely incapable of independent life, even if carried to term, then all an abortion would do would be to hasten the death of something that was only ever going to die anyway.

How can this specific case be compared to the killing of someone who could otherwise have gone on to live a long and fruitful life, maybe make a great scientific discovery, maybe marry your son or daughter....?

How would its siblings feel to be told that they "should" have had a brother or sister, but that its timing was inconvenient, so mummy decided to kill it? Wouldn't that make them feel pretty insecure? It would me!

What I was talking about was the first few weeks after conception BEFORE the actual brain is formed and starts up its electrical activity. But Shopaholic you really DO make a compelling argument that abortion is unethical.

I am pro-choice, because it is the woman's personal choice to keep a fetus or not, pro-choice doesn't mean that everyone is going to get abortions, it means to have the choice to keep it.

I don't like anti-choice people, if I where pregnant, I can do what I want with my body, if you where to say "i'd keep it" then that's great! Get pregnant and keep it for yourself.

I get a kick out of the pro-life protesters, if I had a un-wated pregnancy, I would say "seeing as you want me to have the baby so much...here's an idea, you can have it" that will show them how I feel, how can they expect me to have a baby that I don't want if they are not prepared to take it either, it's like they are saying 'it your problem, deal with it', I also find it funny that concern for the fetus ends after it is born, what about the conditions that it may have to live in? Living with a mother that doesn't want it?

a fetus (1-4 months) is not a baby anyway, it's just a blob of flesh that can grow into a baby if left alone. It has no awareness.

I am not a fan of late-term abortion however, getting a abortion on a viable fetus is like killing a person because it can survive in a incubator and get adopted. There is no excuse for late-term abortions anyway... if you don't want it, get the abortion while the fetus isn't a person yet.

These are just my views however.

Well said!

*applause*