Marija Gimbutus, Her Works

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hey garyww... i saw her pic and your note about her on your special people page on your website. I have not heard of her here in australia. but i will start doing a little fossicking and reasearch on her...as is my way with things.

EXCUSE ME...BellaDOnna.....i was a sexworker for years. also dux of my final years of high school and also came top in subejcts at university for he year i could STAND being there (couldn't s be roped into to organised academic straightjacketing i'm glad to say.)
it is good to know that miztapebooy is challenging your assumptions and stereotypical views about prostitutes.........

there ARE plenty of amazing women around who have been prostitutes. it's just that people are so busy adhering to sterortypes that they faill to read the detailed complexities of human life. Many of the women i know through 12 step programs have been or are still sex workers. some are thick. most are very intelligent and far more complex than one assumes.

It happens in other animals too, and is also can be a subjective exercise to try and distinguish it purpose. Like I said all animal have their odd behaviour, it is not how one would think it is the most logical to do it. That is because we think as individuals, but act overall as a species.

You could say that chimps are unnecessarily aggressive, they don't actually have to be that aggressive but are.

This is not a point about whether violence like that is acceptable or not. We have created mechanisms that curtail some of it. Not that is foolproof or fair. But it apart of the many mechanisms the trims round the parts of our behaviour that don’t fit in the civilization mould.

I think that in a matter of circumstance, there are going to be men identifying as feminists who just simply don't cut it to my standards. It is a trendy label for men to use in order to get closer to women who will accept them easier if they are into it. I've seen this all across the board. Having emotional attachments to women doesn't make a man a feminist. A lot can be confused when you really delve into feminist communities. There are for instance, men who have sexually assaulted women in local feminist or politically radical groups in Richmond. Can they be feminists? Sure, in theory. Are they feminists in practice? If only partnering with women who identify as feminists makes a man a feminist then, by golly, they've achieved ranks of status that I have yet to accomplish as a feminist because I don't identify with political groups, only political individuals.

I've been around the block a few times here. If I'm not going to f**k anyone in a group or community, the abject idea is for me to move on with myself and find somewhere else to "work" out my ideas.

I'm not interested in sympathy for those groups, but I'm not going to take any kind of violent direct action either. I talk about people and my experiences and observations at length with those I meet who don't know the drill . If AS makes me some kind of micro managing genius, then so be it, but I can't tell people what to do with their lives if they don't want to change.

0_equals_true,
Many thanks for talking some sense into that Einstein looking fellow.

Maybe we'll just have to wait and ask the killer chimps.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... Id=5503685

That is an interesting read. I never said that they weren't intelligent. I have read a about other examples like that.

I not really sure of your point though. That article is about bonobos, sometimes called by their old name pigmy chimps. I am talking about chimps, which are more aggressive. However this doesn’t mean they are they are not intelligent. They are very intelligent. Just because they are intelligent doesn't mean they are not aggressive. If you don't think they aggressive, I would look at some footage taken in the wild. They are often given quite a cute persona, that is because they act differently in captivity and tamed to appear less aggressive. Just because we have developed language doesn't me we are free from our primal urges either that is my whole point.


Arguably a lone orangutan male could be much more aggressive than a lone chimp male. That is because orangutans are more solitary anyway. A fully grown chimp male can be around 70kg max, whereas orangutan flanged male can be around 90kg average, 120kg max.

But from just scanning this article it would seem that aggression including biologically instilled aggression is usually male on male and female on female in primates of all kinds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aggression

And then from 'real life' I've lived with a pretty rough crowd and known/lived with about 200 or so people who are supposed to be pretty violent types but I've only know two who ever did hit a woman and in those cases they did indeed rape the women in question. I don't know if that is important since it is such a small sample of people but you'd expect that outlaw bikers would be a lot more violent considering their overall behavior in general. Thats the main reason I don't subscribe to the 'violent-male' theory as having much validity.

I might have given the wrong impression I’m on someone side. So far I’ve just given my take on it, agreeing on some points other have made.

That is really an over simplification, and also dependent on what the biologist classifies aggression. Sexual aggression is considered a normal part of mating rituals of many animals. Rape/sexual assault are also very common place in the animal world, although it can be a grey area because the concept of consent isn't always that apparent anyway, and that is just talking about the non-fringe activities. If you want clear cases of animals that chance down and force sex with the opposite sex, and where the victim are not only trying to flee but a trying to defend themselves there are plenty of examples to choose from. Many mammals do it for example dolphins, many birds do it for example ducks. Also there is cooperation or gang rape element in many instances.

In ducks, such as mallards, rape is something that younger males do if they can get away with it. They will try and separate a female and chase her so they can then tire her out and then rape her. It is not just female ducks that are raped. Sometimes they are no females targets they will try to chase other males. In fact there is a documented case where a male duck chased another male, where the victim smacked into a window and died instantly and the attacker raped the corpse.

I get what you are trying to say with your biker’s group. However we are not arguing the same thing. My argument is less about the individual and more about aggression as a mechanism, just like testosterone is a mechanism. It is a fairly crude mechanism as well. I suppose you are more thinking in terms of those guys making decision in their minds eye. In this respect I would agree with you. Men who attempt to distance themselves from this sort of behaviour shouldn’t be marginalised either.


However I don’t view aggression as something you either have or you don’t, it is something that is apart of nearly all of us. We can self-regulate it to an extent and that is what allows us to live in societies. Trying to live in civilization is like trying to live in a cramped box in terms of behaviour. The box has got plenty of dents in it, it has number of ruptures, and rust round the edges, the inhabitants are very contorted and scrunched up. Some people completely lack the ability to self regulate their aggression, for other it is something that boils under the surface and if they don’t find enough release it can be more explosive.

so just say it in fifty words as these threads aren't intended to be essays.

You don't know me very well

<staring at floor for last ten virtual minutes>

I can't believe Gary won't admit that men are inherently violent, when he knows old school bikers in gangs that have raped women.

Yes they have but in my experience which is significant and considerable it is a small minority comparatively speaking. In over 40 years I know of 2 incidents and that's maybe out of a couple hundred bikers. I know it's not 'scientific' or 'representative' but it's from my personal experiences and that's what I go by.

With those two extreme cases, you don't believe that a culture of violence exists/ed involving many men who underlying support/ed the framework? Gary, you're in denial, but if that keeps you at peace, then stay there. The exclusion of women is violent. I think when I and other women speak about violence as a general entity in society that we mean all causes of it as well. If men are violent towards women then it is men who caused it. Self defense is something not being taken into account here. Can women trigger violent behaviour in men? Yes. Can women be inherently violent, too? Yes. However, due to the average size of the males body being larger than the average woman's body, women are at the disadvantage when it comes to inciting violence. Would they if they could? You bet. I think women get most upset about the fact that they cannot ever put men at large where women have been forced to be in society just so that men could actually understand how violent they really inherently are.

I don't think our mere pressence caused anybody to do anything and if any one I know knew in advance what was to happen it wouldn't have happened. I still do not think based upon my personal experience that men in general are violent or agressive towards women. In fact I think it's much more likely that men who are this way have some issues with manhood to begin with so it's not a masculine thing as much as people suppose it to be but maybe a deep seated resentment against manhood.