Is it common for women with AS to get taken advantage of?

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I would like to mention that I haven't felt threatened or insulted by anything Spiderpig had said, and I understand the point he was trying to make in his original post.

I really think everyone should try to be respectful of other people's opinions and try to argue their points without hostility or personal attacks.

I do think men and women both have a right to post here, as long as there is mutual respect. Almost everyone on here so far has been respectful for the most part.

We don't have to agree on everything, and we probably never will. I'm fine with that.

Sexual harassment isn't about finding someone desirable. The harasser might feel that way, or they might not. It's not evidence either way, if anything it's often done ambiguously so it could be interpreted either way and leaves the women guessing whether it's sincere or not.

If a man just wants to let a woman know that he finds her attractive, there are lots of ways to do that without harassing her. Harassment is a form of intimidation. Sometimes it is done as an actual power play, like in a work environment, where the harasser has no real interest in the harassee but just wants to show dominance. Or it can be done to mock someone or bully them.



Validation? Do you seriously think harassment is supposed to be some kind of positive validation?

Of course it is, and we're lucky to get it. This is why life is so much easier for women, because of all that "validation" being tossed at us by randos. Didn't you know that?

If they don't find you desirable, they just bully you in a non-sexual way. This is what I get. So yes, it is evidence.



Doing it ambiguously is an extra layer of complexity, and women are often just as ambiguous or more showing interest in men.



Of course. If he doesn't want to abuse her, he won't, but this doesn't change the fact that the particular kind of abuse we were talking about implies attraction. I've never denied it's still abuse---in fact, I said women need to defend themselves from it. It'd be nice if you didn't insist on putting the opposite in my mouth by selective quoting.



I'm pretty sure that, in most cases, the harasser would quite happily have sex with his victim if he could, so he does have at least sexual interest. If he actually wanted to be nice to her and cared for her in any more profound way, he wouldn't be abusing her, so this point is moot. And, if it's a mock, it's already a different kind of abuse. I have been mocked this way, too, because it was so obvious they couldn't be possibly interested in me for real.



Evidence that you are desirable is what I meant by validation. It is still evidence even if it comes together with abuse, and saying this doesn't imply that the abuse isn't bad. I conjecture that you dismiss that evidence due to taking it for granted, because, when people are mean to me, they do it in a way which does not imply I'm attractive. There are different ways of being mean, abusive and threatening.

It isn't that complex if you think about it without trying to use it to make someone look bad.

All this says is that you fundamentally misunderstand harassment. It is not at all validation, and it does not AT ALL make the recipient feel sexually desirable. It makes the recipient want to run home and take a shower, which is like the OPPOSITE of what it's like to feel desirable. If you're going to talk about things you don't understand, you should really listen to people who've experienced it and know more than you if you want to learn. From your replies it would seem that you would rather tell women about their experiences than listen to them. This is not a good way to improve your relations with women or to make friends.

Are you sure about that? Say for example, a group of teenage boys harass an unpopular obese girl. They catcall her and whistle at her. They look her up and down and talk about wanting to do sexual things to her. They make lewd gestures like pelvic thrusting or tonguing. Maybe they even put one of the guys up to pretending that he genuinely likes her. He might ask her out on a date, and then show up with another girl while all of these other guys watch her reaction and laugh at her when she figures it out. Do you consider this to be non-sexual harassment?




So what? You are talking about having evidence of desirability. If the intent is ambiguous or unclear, it's not evidence or validation of anything.




Sexual harassment may imply attraction or desire, but that doesn't mean it is sincere or can be taken as validation or evidence of a genuine attraction. You keep talking about evidence, and implication is NOT evidence. Even when that implication is persistent and flagrant, it is not evidence.

If a woman wants real validation that she is attractive or desirable to others, it's not going to come from sexual harassment. It may imply attraction, but it doesn't validate it. Validation is different...like I said, if a man wants a woman to know he genuinely finds her attractive, wants to pay her a compliment, wants to show a sincere interest in a way that is not intimidating, there are other ways to do it. Real evidence of attraction and desire comes from someone being open and honest about how they feel - and I mean actually speaking about THEIR OWN FEELINGS rather than just commenting on things like how the other person looks.

Sexual harassment does not give that kind of validation or evidence. It does quite the OPPOSITE of giving validation, it creates doubt. It leaves the harassee wondering what the real intent is, if there's any genuine interest or feeling behind it or not, how long the behavior will persist or if it will escalate into something more dangerous. There's no real certainty of anything. That's one reason WHY it is abusive, because it creates so much doubt in the mind of the recipient.




If you prefer I will quote and respond to your entire post as I'm doing now and I won't leave out anything you said.




No, it's actually common that a harasser would NOT want to have sex with the harassee. But in any case, being willing to have sex with someone does not equate to finding them desirable. Sexual interest is not always about finding someone desirable or attractive.




The point is that being sexually harassed is not evidence of being desirable to the harasser. However, caring or considerate behavior that is not harassment might make it evident.




No, this is not a different kind of abuse. This is sexual harassment.



Okay, we agree that it's abuse, and it's bad, but we disagree that it is validation or evidence of being desirable.




This doesn't even make logical sense...if I took it for granted, that would mean that I do take it as evidence. And you make a conjecture about my perceptions and/or experiences, based on something that has happened to you?




Sexual harassment IS a very complex issue. It happens in a wide variety of different circumstances, for different reasons. It sounds like you don't have much understanding or awareness of that.

Being abused or harassed didn't make me feel attractive. When someone gives me attention in a positive way, it does make me feel attractive.

I actually felt terrible about myself because I knew I was just being used, and that the people who did various things to me didn't actually like me. Being liked for who I am is important to me.

I actually have really bad self-image problems. I feel ugly. I see myself as ugly, but others don't see me that way. I don't know why I feel that way or see things differently from others.

Rape does imply sexual attraction to a certain extent. But people rape out of anger or hatred, too. And some people just want sex and don't care who they get it from, especially if they are drunk or on drugs.

There are a few points I'd like to address, but I don't have the time or the energy right now. However, ...

Sexual harassment may be complex, but what I was saying isn't, which is what I meant.

This is quite a commom problem. I had similar experiences when younger. I have found it does get better as you get older. I am in my forties with greying hair and dont usually wear make up and favour practical clothing so i dont look attractive most of the time. This takes the confusion put of most interactions with men as i know they arent attracted to me. I think part of the probl was that socially i found men easier to deal with than women and although i am incapable of flirting just sharing an interest could sometimes be enough to get me into trouble.

I am dumbfounded. Autistic women try to have a conversation about their experience of exploitation and a guy comes in and tells us we should feel validated when men try to exploit us sexually.
Seriously?

Would you please ignore me and stop putting words in my mouth? What I said is up there for everyone to see and is not your conveniently distorted version. I have nothing to discuss with you, as I've already told you, and I've been leaving you alone. I only ask the same in return.

I think what you are saying is that the being desired by a man is more valuable than not being sexually assaulted. I can tell you that being sexually preyed upon does not increase feelings of desirability.

And, if you post, obviously I'm not going to ignore you.

Well, I think he feels rejected by women so he imagines that feeling desirable is a better feeling than being totally rejected.

He probably thinks no woman would ever want him or have anything to do with him, so it makes him feel undesirable. He's probably wrong, as far as the idea that he is totally undesirable, but there are a lot of people who feel that way, I imagine.

I don't feel personally insulted by this, it's just a difference of opinion. I can only honestly relate my experiences, and if someone disagrees with it, so be it. I know how I feel and what I've gone through, so it doesn't bother me.

It bothered me a lot more when the jerk that did it lied to the cops, and me, and then tried to see what I remembered because he knew he was in trouble. Stupid lying b******.

I think you are right. And rejection sucks too. It just seems that whenever women try to share their experiences, a man has to drop in to tell us how much worse he has it.

Spiderpig knows what it is like to be rejected, and desired is at the opposite end of life experience.

I think his point of view is based on the premise... that it is better that someone desires you, even if the desire is to harm you, than to be harmed through rejection, because at least in the former you have some value to someone, and in the latter you are valueless and harmed anyway.

I hope spiderpig, that you will try to understand that in this context both rejection and desire result in a harm for the victim, but when you draw comparisons, I find that to be dismissive of the hurt I experienced from anothers desire to harm me. I understand that you are hurting, but, through your words you hurt people like me too, and then justify it because they were desired, while you were rejected.

Most eloquent, Amity...and very nicely put.