Do you hate men because (you think) they are sexist?

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A-MEN!

A-WOMEN.

So I ask you-Aridarr and everyone else: WHY did women put up with men subjugating them for SO LONG?

After reading this message, I called my entire family over to the computer; telling them, gleefully, that I had just read the stupidest question, ever. We all had a good laugh.

Do some research on the history of female rights, and please; look up "subjugated" in the nearest dictionary. I won't bother arguing, as you seem more concerned with defending your wounded ego than listening to reason.

Its only a "Stupid" question(to YOU) because you obviously dont know the answer.

I do. I'm searching for the best way to explain it to you.

You're funny

Be patient, Bucky-boy. Be patient for teacher...

Aridarr, if a woman in her 40s were insisting that life is a lot harder for women than for men I could honestly sympathize even though I wouldnt entirely agree. But a 20 year-old to be saying such I find completely ridiculous. You are at an age where women have a MUCH bigger social advantage than your male peers. It certainly IS true that there are some biological disadvantages that go along with being female, but those disadvantages come Later in life. Being a young man is MUCH TOUGHER than being a young woman here in western culture. For a man to enjoy so-called "male privelidge" he must SURVIVE young adulthood and work his ass off to produce something. I dont think you can honestly appreciate or understand just how intense the competition is among young men for women. Nor can you understand the frustration Aspie men feel because they are simply unable to compete with the more social adept NT males-EVEN when it comes to Aspie Women! Female aspies seem to have no real trouble when it comes to getting a man. I dont see why you arent ENJOYING being a young woman while you can because unless you die young you will start to age and then it will be too late-you'll have lost an oppertunity which will never come again in your lifetime.

Last edited by D1nk0 on 06 Mar 2008, 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I understand the point you are making, but in reality the situation is far more complex than that; more complex than you appreciate. And you are not a young woman; you couldn't possibly understand how hard it is to be in my situation, any more than I can understand yours. But in this argument, I speak not only for myself but also for the sake of feminism and women's rights, the world over.

(BTW - I'm 20. )

I'm going out for a while, but we can continue this later, if you'd like.

Dont forget that society and culture can only affect people so much. What Im saying is: biology is immutable and contrary to what people say, humans DO have instincts. So in essence, society has to find a way to work within the rules of biology because if it didnt then such a society would fall apart. What really stunned me is when I was 19, a 20 year old woman said to me something I can never forget-she said: women are more powerful than men. That really made me question everything I'd been taught about men and women up to that point(which was basically then men have it better than women across the board).
One thing I do have to wonder-seems like the most extreme feminists who feel bitterly towards men are young women who are smart but not physically attractive(or "pretty" what have you). The same could be said of guys like me-being highly intelligent and thoughtful but lacking the requisite traits that attract members of the opposite sex.

Man, I was hoping this thread would end with "A-WOMEN!" That was just too classic....

D1nk0, have you read "Is Female to Male as Nature Is to Culture?" by Sherry Ortner? I imagine it wouldn't be too hard to find over the internet- it's a well-known little 10 page article by an anthroplogist that pretty much addresses your very question.

A lot of the earlier responses you gave towards Aridarr seemed to be rather bitter generalizations, stemming from your own personal experience. Which is ironic, since the lack of ability to separate logic from emotion is a characteristic historically applied to the supposed biological shortcomings of the female sex.

...I do think it's interesting that you don't think I, or other women, have had to "survive young adulthood." Let me remind you that even if a woman's goal was not to "produce something," but rather rely on a man as a dependent, subserviant partner- this role requires specific attributes many females, probably including yours truly, simply do not naturally possess. Just because the role is seen as easier and given a great deal less respect, doesn't make it so. (Just look at the stats of the 50s housewives on antidepressants, for example.)

Also, the desire to work one's ass off to produce something is inherent to HUMAN nature- not just males. We all want respect, and to be able to attach our name to something we accomplished. It's just that females are often taken less seriously in this desire.

And sympathy?

Heh. Look, the allowances for being of a more "feminine, delicate gender" only go so far. To jump back to generalizations: If I fall apart and cry as a girl, it is seen as sad. If I did it as a 30-40 year old woman, it would be viewed as pathetic and an embarrassment- the idea of "well, she is a woman after all, what did you expect?" wouldn't make it any better.

This is what I mean about men making generalizations about women. I don't like it and I disagree because there's men out there who can't even identify. I think the same can go with what race you are and experiences you've had. I've seen many single women have to work and take care of their child. Now I didn't say all men were like this. I've seen many men esp. in my family luv and respect their wives as the wives respect them. On the other hand at my job, I overheard two men at my work agree that a woman didn't have to work if she'd let the guy do the job. This was a guy and his friend at my job. I asked them that very same thing I just discussed and one of the men said, "We'll isn't there child support for that?" It pissed me off but I stopped arguing with him because either he's never had a positive father figure or he just wants attention. I would hope not all men think in this way about ALL women. All in one group has no scientific data and reminds me of how the Jews were treated in Germany. Of course their treatment was way worse and probably won't happen again. That's an example though of generalizing. They would have doctors conclude the same thing about Jews. Here I stop the arguing because I don't think anyone's point's gotten across or will.

Surely you're aware that men -both older and younger-find YOUNG women to be A LOT more desirable than older/middle-aged women. Im told this is part of the reason for all those middle-aged women on anti-depressants: They're having to cope with the fact that they their reproductive potential has run out and that they are aging and can no longer compete with younger women for men's attention and affection. You see-biology really puts some pretty stringent limitations on women in the since that fertility
doesnt last.There's the old saying men age like wine, women age like milk which is understandibly VERY unflattering to women but more or less a fact of life. Basically-young women have something that men want and They are the ones who control access to it(since society does NOT allow men to just go and take it whenever they have the urge); that gives them POWER-but that power doesnt last for those who live beyond young adulthood.





Well, the desire for Status, Wealth, and Recognition certainly IS Human-but NOT everyone actually wants to work their ass off in order to get it! Most people, regardless of gender, will take the quickest easiest path towards achieving such things. What seems obvious to me is that young women who are physically attractive often use their sex appeal to get the things they want. The also can use sex as a form of currency to win the favoritism of powerful, high-status males. Thats the reason why women want men who are high-status so badly-because by associating and sleeping with such men it elevates their own status. However, young women who arent sexually attractive are the ones who really have to work hard and accomplish things to achieve recognition. They cant just sit there and look pretty. I actually HAVE met plenty of smart women and what I've observed is that the smartest women are Never the prettiest!(bear in mind when I say 'smart' I mean MORE than just potential-I mean those who actually USE it). But these principles ALSO apply to men as well! Not so much looks but nonetheless. The bottom line is this: its not enough to have potential-there has to be an INCENTIVE to develop that potential. One of the reasons guys who find that they have musical talent start rockbands-so they can get money and sex!

Last edited by D1nk0 on 06 Mar 2008, 11:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm so glad that I've dropped out from this argument, as it seems to be following the same, tired path that all gender-related discussions follow; the debate of who gets to shag more.

When will you guys realize that there are deeper issues than that? Like institutional oppression and basic biological facts, which make it virtually impossible for people of a certain gender to achieve certain things in their lives? Like rape and genital mutilation? Ritual humiliation and unequal laws? And how even those issues, which do not affect us directly, those issues faced by those of our gender, can affect us deeply... How it is possible to empathize with other women in their suffering and be driven into fits of anguish over the pure injustice of it all?

Women never wanted subjugation: it is simply the way things have always been. We evolved from apes, which were similar to chimpanzees, as in being completely male-dominated. Men are bigger and stronger and could always easily beat the females into submission if they wished, as is still often the case. And our ability to bear children limits us; weakens us and makes us easier to bring under control. If a man wishes to control a woman, he just has to get her pregnant and she will be forced into subservience, to care for her child. (I have testimony of men actually discussing this - their plans to dominate women using this method.)

It is the burden of being "the weaker sex", and it is something we have had to fight, every inch, to overcome. Heard of the suffragettes? We had to chain ourselves to railings and throw ourselves beneath racehorses just to get the right to vote!

Well what do you know…I’m back in the game.

Well, now you've changed your stance, Dink.

I'm talking about a gender role lived over a life-time (married couples are assumed to have passed the stage of sexual competition), and now you're just saying that women have the option of using sex/looks if they are one of the lucky ones blessed with what society considers attractive physical characteristics for a short period of time.

Even women who do have the option to take the "easy route" to the top do not have equal power and worth with the male they are "using." As you said, once they reach a certain age, that power is gone. And many of those that take that path end up feeling very bitter and unfulfilled, if they haven't worked to develop themselves in other ways.

So, according to you- I should be grateful of my female youth and cash in it for the next ten years? Dye my hair and knock on Hugh Heffner's door?

Then what, kill myself to ensure I don't live past "young adulthood?"

Come now. Any girl with half a brain is going to be aware enough to not even be able to enjoy that lifestyle while she has it. There's something to be said for knowing the future has any potential, and being able to look at yourself in the mirror in the morning.