Things I have learned in life about being female

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i can see why some people have misunderstood the post because the op phrased in a way that seems to assume an ubiquitous experience, and if the post is taken literally it does read like that. but the way she describes her experience is nuanced because assuming what is her right to space as a female is part of her experience. while its totally valid to want to continue the discussion by questioning why the op may have these ideas and providing insight into experiences which are not hers, its poor form to accuse her of generalizing the experiences of others without any regard for why she chose to explain herself in that way. misunderstandings are okay, but if more people tried to listen closely before using webspace to respond negligently it would make a huge difference in this forum and elsewhere.

I can see how that might happen in some circumstances, but that sounds like a really out of the ordinary, damsel-in-distress kind of scenario. Most situations aren't like that. It can be things like a quick surprise hug that presses in further than you expected, touching as part of friendly ribbing or teasing that goes too far. It can start out as something small that can be easily denied as a mistake, so I know if I complained I will be perceived as rude or paranoid or bitchy. Yet if I don't do something about it, if I don't give some really subtle sign that it's not welcome, it may happen again and next time will be more invasive. It feels I'm like having to constantly walk a very fine line between politeness and assertiveness.

It can be things like a guy standing too close or leaning in too close during a conversation. My last supervisor used to do this a lot, and it was so distracting it made it hard for me to do my job - another female co-worker had the same experience - and this continued going on even after I had complained to HR.

Or, when I went to a supper at my grandfather's church, the preacher greeted me by pounding - not patting, POUNDING - his hand on my back so hard that it slightly knocked the wind out of me.

Or how about the guy in a convenience store who asked me to buy him a lottery ticket...when I politely declined to do so and turned to walk away, he grabbed at the back of my shirt. There were other males present who saw it happen, and no one spoke up on my behalf.

These are just some of the most commonplace and public types of examples, not even getting into more personal and more invasive ones that would tend to happen in a more private setting.

Yes. Well I phrased it the way I did for a reason. I'm just now coming to terms with how visceral it feels and I'm trying not to rationalize or intellectualize it away. I realize I have a habit of making excuses for why these things happens, "yes, but..." as in yes that felt intimidating, or aggressive, or creepy or whatever, but it probably wasn't meant that way, I probably shouldn't feel the way I do about it, it's no big deal. I noticed how much these thoughts would be running through my mind, just going on and on and how it would disconnect me from my feelings about it.

I would also rationalize that whatever other people do is about them, and is not a statement about me. That might be true, however that's not how I FEEL about it. I feel like it is saying something about me, about who I am, what my place is, what my rights are, what I should expect, what I should do, and so on. And these messages are pervasive enough and frequent enough to become overwhelming, in the sense that it can get hard sometimes to think any differently from what I wrote. The reminders are too constant when I go out in public. I can spend some time away from it, a few days at home, and reset my thinking so that I feel like I am just a person with the same rights as anyone...but after a day or two dealing with the public I notice I am right back to thinking of myself as a second-class citizen, and just feeling gobsmacked by all these behaviors I am encountering.



I totally agree. It's interesting though to see what kinds of misunderstandings and assumptions are made.

Ah OK I understand now, I grew up in the UK and I don't think things are as bad there (as someone else already said)

Now I am in the southern US I have heard a couple of stories but I didn't know this behavior was so common.

^ I couldn't relate to the experience either, here in Ireland if a man behaved that ignorantly he would be told off by strangers.

I think my experiences relate to my height, except with comments about appearance, they only come from women.

I never realised that parts of the US were so regressive.

There is this sort of sexual harassment in the workplace in the US, like what the OP is describing--but I don't believe it's the usual experience of most women in the workplace. But it does exist

Space issues in the street, amongst strangers, are usually not gender-related. There's a Social-Darwinist component to it because of the relative lack of space in cities and in public transportation. The tallest/biggest people tend to take up the most space, and are most reluctant to relinquish it. They use their perceived girth to their "advantage."

There's lots of this kind of sexual harassment crap when there's an office party, and people get drunk and stupid (hell no! I'm not excusing this stuff!). Paradoxically, there is much sexual harassment in the Arts sector, a place where you would think women would have less problems with this sort of thing, owing to the perceived "progressive" mindset of people in the Arts.

If a man were to be sexually inappropriate here it wouldn't be tolerated for very long.
The thing that concerns me is that generally the States is influential globally, from what you're saying this is an undercurrent that exists countrywide, so it's not just limited to particular locations. I think this is helping me to understand the response.

To me the US has always been progressive, a decade ahead of the U.K. and twenty years ahead of Ireland or so. I wouldn't want this kind of cruddy attitude to leak it's way out and into other countries.

One of the key elements for learning and education generally is that it must be a positive experience, no one is going to retain any information long term if it is presented angrily. The brain needs to be relaxed to learn.

From my perspective there were more responses to the off topic responses while on topic posts were ignored.

I've lived in the U.S. and Ireland, and I have to say Ireland is far more progressive socially. Legally they're still a fairly conservative country, but their laws don't reflect the attitudes of the majority of the people. For example, Irish men are much more family-oriented and involved in their children's lives than American men. In Ireland its common to see men holding their children's hands, pushing strollers, wiping their faces, calling out to them, etc. Where I live in America, I almost never see men actively parenting in public. The woman parents, and the man walks along looking bored and detached.
This love for family is balanced with progressive views on issues like gay marriage. In America "family values" has become synonymous with misogyny, homophobia, and racism. Not so in Ireland, where they seem to love their families more and hate and judge their neighbors less.

Try taking the NYC subway some time.

I see plenty of men being nurturing to their children. Wiping their faces, playing with them, admonishing them. Whether the mother is present or not.

I, myself, probably wouldn't do so well with little kids---I didn't do so well with little kids as a little kid; I missed out on much relating to little kids because I was too autistic to really care. It's not because I'm a male, though.

I have a very visceral feeling when I see parents berating their kids. I feel like I want to punch the parents' lights out. I believe strongly in nurture and in teaching kids in a gentle manner.

You should see it since the recession, the stay at home dad is quite a normal experience, jogging with the buggies, out grocery shopping with the kids, in the park, cooking dinner... The role reversal isn't a big deal, just a needs must response to unemployment difficulties for men here.

I've lived in at least one place where the behaviours described in the OP where common, if not prevalent. Disgusting to witness and I can't even imagine what it's like to be the target.

I have a relative who did that for a while. It was sweet to see him fill his FB page with photos of his kids, just like I'm used to seeing mothers do. I've never seen a man jogging with a buggy in my life, though - that would be something to see!

I've seen it.

And also babies on guys' bicycles.

The guys seem delighted.

They aren't. I have lived in the deep south all my life and have never experienced this whole overall oppression that the OP seems to be talking about. I honestly think it's a matter of perception because I haven't heard others with the overall complaint either. There are rude people but there is no regional theme.

Yeah there was a government incentive introduced a few years ago where people could claim tax credits against the cost of a new bike, cycling is a well established hobby here, these kind of sights are common too:
I still find it quite weird that Ireland is viewed as progressive by comparison to the U.S., was this undercurrent there 20/30 years ago?

She is experiencing it though, being an unattached woman working as a sales rep in a male dominated profession is perhaps increasing Dianthus exposure to this undercurrent.