How do you feel about Feminism?

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I believe in the desire for fairness. I believe in equality for the genders.

There might be a “Patriarchy”—but most men are not in it, nor benefit from it.

It’s not correct to put all men in a “Patriarchy” by default.

Most definitely, women have had to fight for all the gains they achieved.

Who here is putting all men in a Patriarchy?

I go by the literal definition of it. I see nothing wrong with it. It's the SJWs people have a problem with. People who have a snowflake attitude, a victim complex, are closed minded they take offense when you have a different perspective. Unfortunately they call themselves feminists or other people do so it gives feminism a bad name.

I would say that I am both feminist and egalitarian. But I feel the need to distinguish between the two because historically women have not been and still are not seen as being equal to men. It's a deep, pervasive problem worthy of its own solutions. It's 2018 and the US still has not passed the Equal Rights Amendment officially granting women parity with men. It's 2018 and we're still debating whether or not women are competent to make their own reproductive choices or even access birth control. We're not seeking to control men, and the very idea that we are is laughable. We're at the mercy of (overwhelmingly) men in Congress and on the bench to tell us whether or not we can even be trusted to control ourselves. Yes, women in other countries often have it much worse. But we can advocate for them and STILL make improvements in our own countries.

A parallel would be the Black Lives Matter movement. A lot of people are baffled by the distinction. "But ALL lives matter, right?" Yes. All lives do matter. But from the viewpoint of a person of color, black lives seem to matter a whole lot less than white lives and that needs attention.

The #MeToo movement came about because it has been nearly universally accepted practice to denigrate, silence, objectify, control and harass women since time immemorial and now it's time for it to stop. Do we sound shrill, loud and demanding to you? Do we seem like we have nothing to complain about? Do we make you uncomfortable? Then you are part of the problem we're trying to solve.

If you've never had your boss come up behind you and rub himself against your butt while you're rummaging through a file cabinet, present you with a negligee for your birthday and tell you he'd like to see you wear it (then give it to his wife when you refuse it) or been told you'd be a lot more attractive prospect for a raise if you got on your knees... then you need to shut up and actually listen to what women--and similarly victimized men--are saying. It happens *all the time* and the alarming number of men in powerful positions that you see going down in flames have been doing it all along. Those are just the select few who finally got caught and called on the carpet. So many more haven't been and never will be. What does it say about us that a man who publicly bragged about using his power to forcibly kiss and grope women ended up in the US presidency instead of being ostracized for his appalling behavior?

Kraftiecortie, I am so sorry for your experience. That should never happen to anyone. It may be cold comfort but at least some of those who have preyed on men are also getting their comeuppance.

Rape culture can be summed up this way: If a person was raped or assaulted and the first things people wonder are what they were wearing, what they did to provoke it, what were they drinking, how virtuous were they in the past, how powerful / rich / influential is the rapist and does he deserve to have HIS life ruined after ruining hers, then that's rape culture. If it's the victim's job to police the rapist's / harasser's behavior rather than his own responsibility to control himself, that's rape culture.

If a victim is afraid to come forward for fear of retaliation, mockery or harassment, that's rape culture too. When Terry Crews revealed that he was sexually assaulted and other men crudely taunted him because he was a big strong man and he should have fought back (and then lost his entire career and probably been accused of assault himself as a result) that was rape culture. It's not a myth.

*stepping off soapbox and mopping my brow*

Feminists/egalitarians/whatevers not only love to rant at men, but they sure love to think they speak for all of us women and all of our experiences while they are on their soapboxes, too.

Shout from the mountaintops all you want. You never let other people speak their narratives, though.

I consider myself an equalitarian. I don't like feminism because I consider it to be a tool of the political left.

You are obviously free to speak your own narrative.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.

This is so well put and so in line with my personal experience as a woman, a feminist, and a person who wants to fight back against rape culture.

You have people who believe “rape culture” sorts of ideas....but most guys, these days, think these ideas are garbage.

That can be attributed, at least partially, to the activism of women.

But I would purport there were many guys out there who were afraid to speak out against the old “rape culture” ideas. They knew those ideas were garbage.

Conditions have changed. While vigilance remains necessary, we are no longer a “rape culture.” And to ascribe “rape culture” ideas as an inevitable part of a man’s thinking is just dead wrong.

I think you’re missing the point. We don’t live in an all-encompassing rape culture, but there is a rape culture nonetheless.

Not all men share these beliefs, but there are pockets and groups of men who do. I’ve seen this in two groups especially. Young men who are immersed in the party scene sometimes display predatory behavior towards women and then brag about it to their friends. I have lots of anecdotal experience with this which I won’t bore you with. Also, men who are in positions of power like to abuse that power by seeking to dominate women (or children) - like Bill Cosby, Sandusky, or any number of religious leaders.

Of course, there are subtle (or often not-so-subtle) and insidious ways that this culture impacts the larger culture. Catcalling, beeping, and just generally harassing type of behavior is seen as normal and commonplace. That’s a problem. They show that men are sexually objectifying women; they show a sense of entitlement.

It’s a continuum or spectrum of aggressive and abusive behavior. If all this stuff is as commonplace as I and some others in this thread have experienced, there is clearly a rape culture.

It gives a reason and explanation as to why sexual harassment, sexual assault, and rape happen. It demonstrates what we need to work on and fight against as a society for things to improve.

I agree with all that you've stated----except for the designation of the American/"Western" culture in general--as being a "rape culture."

It's only semantics, yes....but this is not the essence of America, or the essence of most other nations. It's an unfortunate part of America and of most other nations---just like racism is, just like murder is, just like criminal activity is in general, just like bullying is, etc.

We have to be vigilant. We have to keep on our toes. We have to come closer to perfection in all things. We have to have many adherents to the fight....and we have to possess many weapons in this fights (using the rule of law, rather than of the streets, for example).

Last edited by kraftiekortie on 16 Aug 2018, 9:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

You’re still missing the point. I am not saying that rape culture equals American culture.

Maybe it would help if you read up on it some more.

I would agree that there is a "rape culture" component within our culture....an component which is seen as being irregular, wrong, etc. by most MEN.

That I would agree to.

And I would agree that we must act against those who actually adhere to those notions....and not those who do not--and are, perhaps, seen as being the "guilty gender" by association.

And that we must be allies in this fight. And not seen as potentially condoning the "rape culture" because we feel "allied" with those of our gender who do so.

Once again, who here is bashing the entire male gender or is saying that all men are rapists?

Geez.

I didn't actually say that. It would be absurd if I thought anybody here was stating that "all men are rapists." I don't think that.

All I said is that those of our gender who do not profess these things should not be assumed to be the allies of those who do profess these things. I have encountered this sort of thing in the past.

And I'm not saying that you think this. I'm just making a statement.

In history, there have been movements which excluded allies who were not of their gender/ethnic group/race, etc. One example is the Black Nationalist movement. They were under the assumption that, by virtue of a person being white, that that person is automatically the Oppressor. Hence, they can never be "allies." Only the enemy.

I have encountered those who believe that I, by virtue of being male, are automatically a part of the "Patriarchy" which inevitably oppresses women.

I do believe any "women's movement" should have leaders who are women. And any "Black" movement should have leaders who are black. But I don't believe this precludes people who are not women or black from being allies in the fight.

Remember: I'm just making a statement.

Since nobody thinks this here, I’m unsure why you are mentioning it.