Things I have learned in life about being female

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When I was single I worked construction,did bounty hunting and several other male dominated things and I still never experienced the expectation that she describes. Sure there are rude people but it's not something that is a way of life. I don't doubt she learned it, but I do doubt that it's what was meant to be taught. Perception.

[quote]I still find it quite weird that Ireland is viewed as progressive by comparison to the U.S., was this undercurrent there 20/30 years ago?[/quote

We advertise ourselves as progressive, and as the "greatest nation on Earth", but now it's largely propaganda (it was probably true in the years following WWII). A lot of Americans continue to buy it because our geographic isolation means many of us live our entire lives within our own borders. Also, I think things have gotten worse (particularly for women) since 9/11 and the rise of Christian fundamentalism.

I think there's a big difference between the jobs you did and sales. In sales you have to remain friendly at almost all times, and there's a certain vulnerability inherent in that. Salespeople in general see peoples' dark sides more often, and for women that includes misogyny.

I was gonna post something similar to YippySkippy's comment. It does depend on the type of job.

Actually the worst sexism I encountered was when I was working in construction. I was administration staff, so easy pickings I guess, whereas if you're a strong construction worker or bounty hunter the men will have a different perception of you. Oom I think you were seen more as one of the lads and you've certainly got a strong character and know yourself. I totally believe that you would be respected.

But I have a different kind of personality and it's only been through reading stuff like everydaysexism on Twitter that I've realised I actually should have told these guys where to go.

The problem is when people are conditioned to be polite we sometimes forget there is a line. If someone crosses that line, you do not have to be polite anymore. But it's kind of jarring when, as a polite person, you are treated without respect and it's like a mind fuzz where your brain is slow to process what is actually happening.

And then you think about it later and you think, did that actually happen?

I didn't learn any of the things about space in the list.
I always felt like I took up about the right amount of space for my body size.
Men who seem to take up lots of space are probably just taller and larger.
I didn't notice men of average build but same height or shorter than me take up a lot of space or invade my space.

I have decided I do have something more to offer this discussion that hopefully will be helpful. After re-reading the OP and taking in consideration that she does what to do something about it. I suggest that CBT might be a good approach.

Whist opening up about internalised thoughts can sometimes be helpful, it is not necessarily enough remove entrenched fundamental beliefs and behaviors. Thoughts and behviours can be cyclical in nature and this cycle, can further perpetuate them.

A major concept in CBT is the idea that it is possible for the catalyst to not longer be there and the cycle to still continue, but the nature of the beast is the brain will look for other things will confirm its prescience. So bad experience shape our fundamental thought and behaviors, stuff that remind us of that will validate. It is not that the catalysis is always removed simply that it is not required to be there for the cycle to continue. It is completely different from the Freudian idea of repression and more empirical.

I can't help much with behaviors because I don't have that information. I will focus on the cognitive side. Also, I'm only showing an example of how you could approach it, this is far from the whole of CBT just a start. The statement you have given are general and maybe somewhat hypothetical, however I will treat them 'as is'.

There are a couple of exercises you can do help you make an evaluation on your thought process.

The first is to take separate the relevant facts, you know to be true and verifiable so and other stuff which may or not be true but are assumptions you need to qualify you statements.

Here goes:

1. My body is not supposed to take up much space. My legs should be together at all times, if not crossed, and my arms should be pressed close to my sides or crossed. When I walk, I should walk carefully and look all around to make sure I don't get in anyone's way.

Things you know are true:
Bodies take up variable amount of space.
People have different opinions on social etiquette.
Not everyone is careful to watch where they go or not to get in peoples way.

Assumptions needed to qualify statements:
People think you don't need much space.
People always judge you on how you hold your body.
You must take up as minimal space as possible.
These things are required of you at all times.
You must follow these conventions.
People will be watching to make sure.
People won't avoid getting in your way.

2. Men need a lot more space for their bodies when they sit or stand or walk around. They will need to sit with a wide stance or have their legs stretched out. I should never sit with a wide stance, because it might make me think I am whore, and it might take away from their precious leg room. They will also need more space than I do for their arms. If there is an armrest between us, they have the absolute right to use it and I don't.

Thing you know are true:
Men tend to be bigger.
Men are still variable in size.
There are bigger women too.
Men sometimes sit with a wider stance.
People at times need to still in a stance for comfort reasons.
People sometime hog armrests.

Assumptions needed to qualify statements:
Men don't care about leaving you enough space.
Men always need extra space.
Men need to sit in overly wide and broad stances.
If you sit is a wider stance people will think you are a whore.
You have less right to use an armrest.

3. When a man is sitting or standing close to me, the space around my body is really his. I should not expect to have any extra space around my body that is just mine. He can expand his body all the way out into that space, right up to the edge of my skin. He can even touch me if he wants. He can put his arm around me, or pat me or slap me on the back, grab at my clothing or stand so close I can feel his breath on my cheek as he is talking to me. There is no natural reason why I should expect anything different.

Things you know are true:
People compete for space.
People can brush up against each other.
People can be more touchy feel/tactile with others, and this varies by the person and culture.
Not everyone respects peoples space.

Assumptions needed to qualify statements:
Men own the space around you.
You aren't allowed extra space.
Men can use any space around you as they wish.
Men can touch and breath on you as they wish.
There is no other alternative, or reason to believe different.

4. When a man is walking towards me, I must be ready to move out of the way quickly to let him pass. He needs more space than I do to walk. He might need to swing his arms wildly, or whirl around suddenly as he gets close to me. He may need to walk so fast that he can't slow down for anyone. He may not really be able to see me. I might get thrown off balance or injured if I am not prepared to move, especially if he is pushing a shopping cart.

Things you know are true:
People can take a more dominant position when passing others.
People move at different speeds and can be more or less rushed.
People can be more or less willing to move out of the way.

Assumptions needed to qualify statements:
Men expect you to be ready to move out of the way for them.
Men need more space to walk than you.
Men employ tactics specifically to get you to move out of the way.
Men may not even notice you are there.
Men will push right through you if you refuse to move.

5. When a man opens a door for me, I should always be appreciative of it, even if he blocks the doorway so much that I have to brush against his body to get through the door. After all he is just trying to be nice, like his mama taught him to be, and it would make me a real b***h if I didn't act grateful. He just needs a lot more space than I do to get through the door, so it's not like he's trying to get close to me so he can feel my body or anything.

Thing you know are true:
People sometimes hold doors open for people.
This can sometimes be awkward, and lead to people getting in the way.
There are a number of ways of holding a door open not all of them require getting in the way.
People sometimes expect acknowledgment for actions.

Assumptions needed to qualify statements:
You must always express appreciation for a man opening a door for you, despite how he acts.
People expect you to show appreciation and gratitude.
Inappropriate actions are him being nice.
It would be bitchy to not express gratitude for this.
The space he take up is reason enough for him to feel your body.

6. The man who just made a big grand show of opening a door for me, may be completely oblivious to my physical presence a short time later when he needs extra space to walk, stand, or sit. I should just accept this especially since he was nice enough to hold the door open for me. After that I owe him for the gesture by allowing him to take all the space he needs.

Thing you know are true:
People who show you appreciation of physical preference, may not later.
People show a variable degree of awareness or tolerance of others at different times.

Assumptions needed to qualify statements:
A man that has opened the door for you will not care about your personal space if there is nothing in it for him.
You should put up with this because you owe him.
Men expect you to comply because he has been nice to you once.
Men will not show further awareness of you personal space after the gesture of opening the door for you.

7. All aspects of my body and appearance, including particularly my hairstyle, my skin tone and color, my weight and the size and shape of my body, are open to any and all comment or question from other people, accompanied by pointed staring or gestures to highlight the aspects they are most interested in.

Thing you know are true:
People can comment and make judgments on people's appearance.
People sometimes stare and point.

Assumptions needed to qualify statements:
Everything about your appearance will be open to comment about or questioned.
This will result in pointing and staring.
Everyone feel able to do this.
You can't do anything about it.

The second exercise is to look for extreme words and concepts in you statements. By that I'm not talking about political extremism. It means word and concept that allows little or no other possibilities to be true. Words like only, all, never, must, etc.

BTW were are all hypocrites I know I am (yes the irony is not lost ), so no worries.

Here goes:

1. My body is not supposed to take up much space. My legs should be together at all times, if not crossed, and my arms should be pressed close to my sides or crossed. When I walk, I should walk carefully and look all around to make sure I don't get in anyone's way.

Plus the concept that you must do go to extreme effort and care to act accordingly.

2. Men need a lot more space for their bodies when they sit or stand or walk around. They will need to sit with a wide stance or have their legs stretched out. I should never sit with a wide stance, because it might make me think I am whore, and it might take away from their precious leg room. They will also need more space than I do for their arms. If there is an armrest between us, they have the absolute right to use it and I don't.

3. When a man is sitting or standing close to me, the space around my body is really his. I should not expect to have any extra space around my body that is just mine. He can expand his body all the way out into that space, right up to the edge of my skin. He can even touch me if he wants. He can put his arm around me, or pat me or slap me on the back, grab at my clothing or stand so close I can feel his breath on my cheek as he is talking to me. There is no natural reason why I should expect anything different.

Plus the concept there are no limitations what a man con do or will do in your personal space, if it is physically possible.

4. When a man is walking towards me, I must be ready to move out of the way quickly to let him pass. He needs more space than I do to walk. He might need to swing his arms wildly, or whirl around suddenly as he gets close to me. He may need to walk so fast that he can't slow down for anyone. He may not really be able to see me. I might get thrown off balance or injured if I am not prepared to move, especially if he is pushing a shopping cart.

Plus the concept that you to be prepared to take evasive action to avoid a man crashing into you which could result in injury and they may act like wildly and sharply.

5. When a man opens a door for me, I should always be appreciative of it, even if he blocks the doorway so much that I have to brush against his body to get through the door. After all he is just trying to be nice, like his mama taught him to be, and it would make me a real b***h if I didn't act grateful. He just needs a lot more space than I do to get through the door, so it's not like he's trying to get close to me so he can feel my body or anything.

Plus the concept that you must show gratitude for a man opening a door even if it is made unpleasant or you will be looked down on, and there is no other course of action you could do to avoid this.

6. The man who just made a big grand show of opening a door for me, may be completely oblivious to my physical presence a short time later when he needs extra space to walk, stand, or sit. I should just accept this especially since he was nice enough to hold the door open for me. After that I owe him for the gesture by allowing him to take all the space he needs.

7. All aspects of my body and appearance, including particularly my hairstyle, my skin tone and color, my weight and the size and shape of my body, are open to any and all comment or question from other people, accompanied by pointed staring or gestures to highlight the aspects they are most interested in.

There you go.

So there is obviously more to it that that, that, but hopefully you could use those technique to look at your thought patterns, to consider if you are being reasonable, if you have enough evidence to draw these conclusions in that instance, or if you should be giving people enough benefit of the doubt.

Having said that, once realise you have negative thought patterns and can recognise them. I recommend a different approach, especially if you are very analytical. You can get stuck in an analytical loop, which can be necrotic itself. So I tend to recommend more disruption/distraction tactic.

However it is good for starting out with new patterns.

Really? I thought it was the other way around. Or at least, I hope it is. I grew up in a conservative religious family, homeschooled, had lessons about atheist 'conspiracies' like evolution and climate change, listened to daily rants about gay people destroying the 'fabric of society' (I am bi, so this was worrisome), etc.. Women, of course, were not permitted to take leadership roles in the church, and were regularly reminded to prepare for raising children. There was some discrimination against men, too, for example men are not allowed to have feelings or ask for help.

There are many parts of the US that are basically in the middle ages, socially. A minority, but a very loud and troublesome minority.

Out in broader society, I've noticed a few of the things OP talked about. Sometimes a guy will figure out that if he pushes people around and talks over them, he gets more dates. Then he is an ass for the rest of his life.

Keep in mind there's an anatomical reason that guys sit with their legs so wide. If we sit with our legs squished together for too long, it gets quite uncomfortable, if you catch my drift.

I think that some of the things you mentioned though are not really things females have to do but more of things that you can choose to do. For instance, if someone is walking towards you on the sidewalk and won't get out of the way, you could just choose to walk into him. A lot of times if someone realizes you're not going to get out of the way, they will get out of the way at the last minute or you two will collide. Sometimes I'm walking on the sidewalk and a guy is walking towards me and we both decide that we want the other person to move and we end up moving slightly at the last moment and clipping our shoulders.

Also I've had girls walk into me because they thought it was ok to continue walking beside their boyfriend when they were closer to me (guys have done the same thing). Although to be fair, I've done the same thing when I'm walking with my gal even though I generally do try to be courteous.

Those are super common in the US. I also see people with their 3 year olds attached to their actual bike (if the bike fell over, the kid would too (the kid's strapped in, but that still seems dangerous.

There you go, Dianthus--all you need is therapy to correct your incorrect ideas about what living as a woman in your culture has meant to you! You see, your ideas about your own experience are wrong because you are crazy and need to rearrange your thoughts until they are more like 0_equals_true thinks they should be, because he has a better idea of what a normal woman who lives in your culture's thoughts should be. Wasn't it kind of him to explain that to you in so much detail? Not at all patronising and dismissive of your interpretation of your own lived experience as a woman! How thoughtful of him. I hope you're grateful!

Maybe it is, I cant find anything about that except in relation to technology. My bad.

The first time I seen one of those trailers was at a busy roundabout and I thought the dad needed his head checked, but similar to with a trike, a pole with a flag would make it more visible.
If the Germans say they are safer than this:

...

Personally, I think "jogging buggies," or what we in the US call "strollers" are probably the safest.

Every time I see a baby on one of those bicycle seats, raised high off the ground, I fear for the baby.

There are some parts of the US where outmoded ideas still hold sway--this is true.

I agree. Since I've been in this line of work I have been shocked by some of the behavior I've seen. I mostly call on convenience stores, and things do vary a lot from one store or neighborhood to another. But in general it's kind of like the wild west, anything goes and I never know what to expect when I walk into a store.

And it probably goes without saying, but in case it doesn't, a lot of c-stores are run by foreigners. Some of them are really wonderful people to deal with and they are really nice and respectful. But then others do come from cultures that are known for blatant misogyny, and it definitely comes across in their behavior.

However it's more often the customers who tend to bother me, and it's not only in convenience stores that I work in, I notice a lot of the same behavior in other stores I shop in, at restaurants, just being out in public in general.

I've been doing this long enough to know some of the behavior I have seen is very neighborhood-specific, or clientele-specific. So I can see how someone who lives around here and only frequents certain places might be oblivious to some of it. It could be the same in any other part of the world, maybe less so in cultures that are more homogeneous than the US.

I cover an area with probably a 60 miles or so diameter, several counties, over 150 stores...and then because I visit different areas I do my own shopping at a lot of different stores. How many other people who are commenting, actually frequent well over 150 different public places on a monthly basis? Try that, and do it on a monthly basis for several years, and then come back and tell me "I don't see it."

CBT is not psychoanalysis. If you read it, it is a way of looking at you thoughts and behaviors based on what you can tell from objective analysis.

There is a difference between experiencing things, and the beliefs you form as a result. Experience doesn't determine that you thoughts about it are valid, you do that in your head.

CBT is all about learned behaviors which is what this is about.

I never called anyone wrong or crazy, she expressed interest in unlearning these beliefs not me.



You are saying the beliefs should go unchallenged/unquestioned on the basis that someone has experienced something.

That is the sort of thing that bolsters extremism and bigotry.

If you read what I wrote I didn't make firm conclusions it was an example of two techniques. It doesn't has to be done the same way. I'm only sharing what helped me.

It is not me being patronizing here, or being curt and dismissive.

Anyway make of it what you wish.

True...and re: our geography, another way to look at it is that traveling within the continental states, distance-wise, would be like traveling to different countries in other parts of the world. And just because it's all under one federal government doesn't mean everyone shares the same culture.

My mom has a friend who moved here from California, and she has noticed how living here has gradually subdued her friend's personality. She used to be a lot more assertive.

I agree things have gotten worse since 9/11, for many reasons, one of which is definitely propaganda.

LOL, thank you for the summary, I was too overcome with gratitude to read it.

I do think there is undercurrent across the country of sexually inappropriate behavior, but the ways that people act it out are specific to different locations. For instance I don't see a lot of what I'd call street harassment, but there are tons of blogs, videos, etc. documenting it in other places, particularly NYC.



Is there something you feel was presented angrily in this thread?



I noticed that too, and I've noticed that in a lot of other discussions on this forum. It seems to be par for the course with certain topics, I'm actually surprised it didn't disintegrate into cat photos already.