Muslim Women?

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In reply to MO2- We have the same problem in the religious Jewish community, some young people become religious and then they act all holier-than-thou and disrespect their parents, while one of the most important laws is to respect your parents, teachers and elders! Or they'll think that dressing a certain way is more important than how they act and treat people.
I guess it's because some people are attracted to a religious life out of a desire to become closer to G-d, while others because they think it's going to solve all their problems. You bring your problems with you! And some are attracted to the outer trappings of religion, and think it makes them better than other people.

I see why it makes more sense reproductively, but that's besides the point.

You see hardly any cultures (if any) that are fine with the idea of a woman having multiple husbands. Usually this is because women are considered inferior, weak, or property of men.

Of course you'll far more babies with polygamy. But if a woman would like to have the option of having more men, I feel she should be entitled to it just as the men of Islam are entiteld to have more than one wife. It's all about equality.
I know that if I had a husband that had more wives other than me, I'd go nuts with jealousy and bitterness.

Then again, I know you will disagree, and nothing I say will convince you, and I respect that. These are just my own feelings on the matter.

You know, it is not because i am a muslim, that i am not jealous! I am terribly jealous! When we are out, i always say to my husband "put your head down", I dont want him to look at any other women. And i know he is allowed to have more wives, if he can be fair. But i wont accept that. I accept the fact that men are allowed to have 4 wives, but i dont want that.
I have friends who are second wives (btw, second wives is easier than first...) and they are happy.
I think polygamy is great, but i dont want my husband to marry again (and he knows that, it is a condition in our marriage contract... )

there is a culture who is fine with women having a lot of husband. I think it is in an africa tribe, a woman married a man, then every follwing year, she marries his brothers...
But for me i doesn t make any sense. it is very hard for me to be with an husband. you know, when we are not in the mood sexually, i dont know how i will keep happy 4 men. And dont forget, men have physical needs, not like women. (well we have some, but not as intense as the men ...)

Both opinions are right, about the historical reason most cultures prohibit polyandry (multiple husbands). The first reason is that paternity is important in these cultures, and the whole social system would fall apart if you had a lot of people running around not knowing who their fathers are. They're called ''patriarchal'' societies for a reason!
The other is, yes, aquiring a wife was considered a form of purchase, as it was in most ancient cultures. The difference is that when Judaism came along, it established regulations and limits on how many wives a man could have and how they were to be treated, to be fairer to women. Because Judaism was for the most part inherited- passed down through the mother!- the surrounding cultures still had the older, grossly unfair practices, which were corrected with the advent of Islam.

I can agree that any religion or philosophy can be misused and end up with people abusing others.

What question I am trying to ask: is it right for a Muslim to harass another Muslim brother or sister for not wearing hijab, fasting during Ramadan, saving money for pilgrimage etc? I don't mean just telling someone that they are in error to try and honestly and lovingly try to improve their faith and practice of religion. I have seen Muslims harassing other Muslims at work and it really bothered me. Is there supposed to be a penalty given out to people or is it just on their own conscience?

On the subject of non-Muslim women wearing a headscarf. I was wearing some kind of headcovering once in a mall food court. A man asked me if I was Muslim. I said no. He was wondering because he said it thought it was strange to see a covered woman eating in public during Ramadan. I think the next time a stranger asks me anything like that -- I just wouldn't answer. I don't think it would be anyone business why I cover my head anyway.

That is a totally shocking crime.

No offense...but that's totally wrong. There are women that have great needs too.....lots of women love sex. This statement is a bit sexist and generalizing of women. Lots of religions and societies WANT you to believe that women don't like sex. If I had five husbands to choose from....damn, it would be fun.

No offense, but actually, it's not - not wrong and not sexist, just biological fact. It is a generalization and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that because the point is that the GENERAL situation of women is that they have a lower sex drive (physically) than men, which leads to a lot of pressured wives and a lot of frustrated men, in GENERAL. Like Ghouna said, just because polgygny is allowed doesn't mean that everyone has to do it or accept it in their own situation, but it is an option for those who would like to, as long as certain standards are met: that each wife be provided with her own living quarters (co-wives do not have to live together and deal with the ridiculous levels of jealousy that would entail), they must be given equal time (generally in terms of one night for each wife in regular rotation, but other arrangements can be made), they must each be provided for equally in terms of food and clothing, etc. There is no fault on the husband for the inclinations of his heart which it is impossible for him to control and he may visit whomever he likes during the day whenever he likes (if he wants, he may go to all), but each wife must be guaranteed her basic rights as a wife.

For the EXCEPTIONS of women who have a more active sex drive--and there are many, but they are still the minority of women--it is the responsibility of the husband to satisfy her to the best of his capacity (according to a fatwa I got many years ago from a very respected shaikh), just as it is her responsibility to satisfy him to the best of her capacity, since the main purpose of marriage in Islam is chastity: to fulfill the natural sexual needs within the bounds of a legally recognized marriage. Due to issues of paternity, I can't imagine what the purpose of "marriage" would be if one has four "husbands".

If and when any of these rules are not followed, the spouse would have a legitimate grievance which it is recommended they discuss calmly to try to solve, but if the situation escalates, then, contrary to popular belief, women do have the right of divorce in Islam; it is called khula. If many Muslim women are oppressed, it is because there are those who want to prevent them from learning their God-given, Islamic rights.

Whether or not offense was intended, I do find it offensive when people (usually for the sake of "feminism" which is not a monolith) assert that ALL difference between the sexes is cultural when that is so obviously false. Just because women differ in GENERAL, in many ways from men, doesn't mean that they are less, inferior, dominated, brainwashed or whatever. Nor does it mean that there are no individual exceptions, but exceptions do not make the rule. People are what they are and there are solutions for everyone, but in Islam, the purpose of life is not restricted to getting your kicks and having fun. These things have their place and they are kept in their place. Thing is, I wouldn't go barging into the transgender thread to liberate them from their folly because I know how welcome that kind of contribution would be.



Obviously, if any of it is true. I have no proof, but there may be a grain of truth to it, who knows? The point is that it is a stereotype, and a very common one, which probably not many outside of Egypt have never heard, which is why I repeated it. For shock value. Ok, here's another one: Christians smell greasy because they are always fasting (fasting for Christians in Egypt involves not eating meat on Fridays and certain other seasons of the year, so they presumably eat various fried vegetables). Pretty offensive, isn't it? People become numb to stereotypes when they are repeated, but I expected the stereotype to be questioned when it is foreign. Americans (and I don't know who else in the world) have become numb to stereotypes of Muslims because it fits what they want to believe about us.

I have to agree with you on this one DazzleKitty

Realistically, though, what would the word "marriage" add to an arrangement like this? If we agree that marriage is for preserving commitment and rights, and not just the satisfaction of desires, then what exactly would a polyandrous marriage provide? How would this differ from unsanctioned promiscuity?

Please stop about polygamy and answer my questions.

[quote = "MO2"]is it right for a Muslim to harass another Muslim brother or sister for not wearing hijab, fasting during Ramadan, saving money for pilgrimage etc?[/quote]

Harass, no, but advise, absolutely. It is obligatory. In fact, this is one of the best things about our religion is that it is an obligation to remind one another of what we are supposed to already know. Being an obligation helps in overcoming shyness and apathy. Of course, as legendoftheselkie said,

so some people might be eager to advise and lax in appropriate delivery, neglecting to temper their advise with wisdom and gentleness, but we are all works-in-progress. In such a case, you might simply advise back. A Muslim should appreciate it if he/she is advised to present their advice in a more harmonious, respectful manner (and it shouldn't make any difference whether that advice comes from a Muslim or a non-Muslim). And if he doesn't, well, that's his shortcoming (and we all have them). The point of advice is not to put people down, but to help everyone up.

For this reason, I suppose that when dressing in a way that is commonly assumed to be Muslim, you might unwittingly be inviting unwelcome advice. A Muslim woman eating in Ramadan during the day might not be committing a sin because she may have her period and therefore be excused from fasting, but it is considered wrong to eat in public in order to avoid advertising her private situation and (in a Muslim country at least) to maintain the public atmosphere. In a non-Muslims country, such advice was maybe just meant to be helpful. I'm always surprised in Egypt at how well one is expected to take advice even when it seems to me that such advice is meant in a mean spirited way. I am inevitably told that it appears that way to me because I assume the worst of people. The Egypt bit is just my example because in my experience, Americans are particularly offended by random advice. The people you mention may actually be rude or you may be perceiving them as rude because of a cultural/religious divide.

[quote = "MO2"]Is there supposed to be a penalty given out to people or is it just on their own conscience?[/quote]

Penalty? There are no official worldly penalties for something like that, but are there in any system/culture/religion? Penalties come in many forms, some from Allah and they come in like kind to the offense. Although I'm sure there are many different implications, the word, "karma," comes to mind. Some penalties come from the people who were offended themselves in the form of dislike, disapproval and distrust. These things are inevitable, I suppose. Then there is also the great Accounting on the Day of Judgment when no atom of wrong will be left unrequited.

[quote = "MO2"]I don't think it would be anyone business why I cover my head anyway.[/quote]

I suppose any time you do anything out of the ordinary or unexpected in public, you are going to be subject to a certain amount of attention and as I understand it, hijab is a major magnet for unwanted attention (wait, are you in America?). Maybe you could prepare some kind of a here-it-is-in-a-nutshell Miss Manners response and resort to it as necessary, like...well...I'm not really Miss Manners, so maybe we should take suggestions on that one.

thank you for answering my questions.

I have worn various types of headcoverings. Certain styles do invite unwanted attention. I find that hats or berets don't seem to bother people too much. A Mennonite style bonnet or hanging veils or large scarfs tied a certain way get so many unwanted comments. (remember, I am a Christian and cover my head for religious reasons). I thought that wearing a hijab type scarf might attract less attention because where I live -- there are many Muslims. People are used to seeing women wearing hijab and mostly don't bother them where I live.

People know it is against the law where I live to harass someone for wearing hijab but they don't seem to understand it is the same offense to harass someone wearing Mennonite clothing as well. Once I was wearing a long modest dress and a "bun cover" in Walmart and I had a woman and her teenage daughter came up to me and made fun of me. I told them that I dressed this way for religious reasons and that they wouldn't make fun of a Muslim woman wearing hijab and then they apologized.

For not tying or pinning a scarf a certain way or responding to an Arabic greeting, I have also been criticized as being a "fake Muslim". That is also harassment. How would a Muslim woman respond to a strange man approaching her in public? I should just ignore these people?

It is actually good to live in a country where I can wear a piece of cloth for protection and also have laws that protect me too. I am just often surprised at people being so rude and ignorant.

It dosn't matter if it was for religious reasons for not, the fact that those people made fun of you is just plain rude.... what are they the fashion police?

I think I will just say that I cover for religious reasons and leave it at that.

I was not wearing a headscarf but large beret hat, long skirt and modest necked top. Some man asked me why I was dressed that way. I told him it was religious. He asked me what religion. I told him but I think I should avoid discussing my clothing with strangers in future.

Harassing someone for wearing religious dress in my country is a hate crime. But just what is harassment? I think that stating ones religion could just invite abuse.

The next answer to further questions could be "I am not interested in discussing these matters with you (or strangers)." Questions or comments beyond that would be harassment.

I am actually thinking about going to talk to police about what I can do about future harassment. I don't know when it would be appropriate to call the police and make a complaint.

Some people are just curious or ignorant about covering. I am not interested in getting into arguments with people in public. Some people don't agree with the reason why women cover. I don't like when woman dress immodestly in public yet I don't criticize them in public.

What is your "stock phrase" about people inquiring about your covering?

My hair is really long and curly but I very rarely have it down, it is either in a braid with a bandana over it, or a head scarf. People never asked or said anything, I don't wear them for religious reasons at all, I am just a naturally modest person.

One day I did leave my hair down and that was when people asked why I always had it up or covered, I often respond to 'why not? there is no reason to have it down either'. But religion was never mentioned at all, I guess its because they see my pentagram, showing that I am a pagan.