the treatment of women on wrongplanet

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I saw the moderator's response to a PM on this topic with my own eyes, so it's not hearsay from where I'm sitting. Feel free to question them yourself if you wish.

Perhaps I will, but in the meantime, this discussion is still lacking any examples of what people think the mods are letting go by that should be moderated, without which the whole thing is kind of vague and unhelpful.

they have explicitly said that they do, because they have been specifically directed to by the site owner. statements like "women only want jerks who abuse them" will stay on the boards sometimes even after they are reported, while statements like "jews only want money" are swiftly removed when reported, because they are obviously bigoted and inflammatory (and inaccurate) generalisations. as i said, if you question the existence of this policy or what directives were given to the moderators, feel free to ask them about it yourself.

Those of us here in support of raising this issue have seen examples of this all over the forums, otherwise why would we even be here having this discussion in the first place? There would be no need for it. I'm not here to take your right to disagree with anyone away from you, only to see that everyone is treated with respect. There are good ways to disagree with someone that don't involve resorting to disrespectful and/or hateful language. If you seek examples you can feel free to go in search of some of those for yourself as well because as was stated earlier, this thread was not created to prove the existence of sexism on WP to you.

Do you have a non-hypothetical example? It's hard to draw much of a conclusion one way or the other when the only evidence on offer is a handful of naked assertions. Context, for example, could explain why some comments are left while others are purged, but we can't make that judgment without seeing the offending statements.

if you are genuinely concerned that the sort of change i am trying to bring about with this thread is going to be problematic for you as a member, as i stated earlier, please feel free to make a thread about that yourself and see if others share your concerns. also, you are free to start a campaign/organise some sort of activism against any campaigns that may come about as a result of this thread, if you choose to do so. no one here is preventing you from doing that. i have already stated my intentions for this thread very directly to you and everyone else--and the intention is not to have a debate on this topic but to receive suggestions for what might be done to contact alex. if you want a debate, make one elsewhere with those who wish to debate this topic.

If they're that widespread, you should have no problem providing some examples then.



That's kind of the point of my posts, discerning if there's actually a need for the changes to the site rules being proposed. So far, a handful of people have made various assertions regarding what they see as tolerance for sexism on the site, but no actual examples of what they're referring to have been provided.



How can I find something that no one will provide an example of? Generally, if someone makes a case for a major change based on a personal claim, the onus is on them to provide documentation of that claim, not on anyone else who may be questioning the veracity of that claim. I don't know why anyone would think they needed to convince me of anything, I hold no power here, I'm merely providing a second opinion for anyone who may be following the thread.

Indeed, and feel free to discern that all on your own. As we've already said, we're not here to discuss the issue with you.



I find eyes to be an useful tool. Now that you've seen the concerns raised, perhaps you can use your eyes to see if such concerns are warranted for yourself, going forward.

Again, as was stated, we're not here to convince anyone of anything. We here to look for support from others who've already been convinced by the things they themselves have witnessed on WP in their wanderings. There is no onus on anyone to do anything at this point. And on that note I think I have nothing else to say to you on the matter.

I see plenty of people wishing to debate right here, you seems to go back and forth yourself, and if you honestly think this is a good idea, you should welcome debate to test and hone it. You did not ask OliveOilMom to leave despite her arguing against your premise, and you've engaged with any number of people who were posting things not directly related to advancing this particular cause, including requesting citations for claims they made, which sounds an awful lot like debating. Wouldn't you rather any problematical elements come out now rather than down the road when you've possibly invested more time and energy in the matter? I'm not trolling your thread, I'm not insulting anyone, I'm making useful, constructive criticisms, and if you really fear that, then maybe this whole thing wasn't the greatest idea in the first place.

We? Are you speaking for someone besides yourself?

You're of course under no obligation to answer my questions, feel free to ignore them, I'll happily talk to other people in the thread who want to discuss the issue(s).



All I'm asking is for an example of what the OP thinks is tolerated sexism; I can't find that for her as it's defined by her opinion, which is not something I can just go out and look for.



That's fine, like I said I'm happy to contribute my take on things independently or engage with anyone who cares to discuss things in depth, echo chambers don't help anyone after all.

Excellent. Enjoy, happily

I, myself, do not make misogynistic jokes. People frequently take offense when no offense was meant. I'm not part of the Patriarchy--so don't assume that I am part of it. I don't like to be accused of sexism when no sexism is present. I don't think of women as being "objects," similar to how women don't think of me as an "object."

IMO sexism is pretty much endemic on the site. How to handle it is a very thorny issue. Attempts have been made in the past to stamp it out, particularly in L&D by spongy but Alex intervened and basically told him to lay off. L&D has a particularly bad reputation and to be honest I rarely visit that forum because I find it so disheartening - it is full of people (largely men) who to put it bluntly struggle to get dates or struggle even talking to women and ultimately they end up bitter and twisted and blame the women for their own inability to form and maintain relationships. There are several problems from a moderating point of view - we could try to stamp down hard on all sexism but Alex has already muted that - probably because we (the mods) would likely end up banning a very significant number of male members!

There is also the issue of coverage. Mods only have a limited amount of time and frankly we probably read only 1% of the posts made on the site; so we tend to rely on members reporting problems, but even then it can be like stepping into a minefield - there is often so much flaming going on between several members that we can't single out a single member so the only option left is to lock the threads.

Someone mentioned mods acting as referees in threads. That isn't going to happen; not only do we not have time but frankly I (personally speaking) just don't have the emotional / psychological resilience / skill to get involved in such activity. I'm happy to whack trolls and spammers and break up fights but I'm not some sort of relationship councillor/expert who can step in and try to guide threads to be sexism free.

I don't really know what the answer is; other than members exerting peer pressure on the sexist members and pointing out when they are being sexist; because it is often done unconsciously rather than blatantly / offensively. Those members who are sexist need re-educating (somehow). Those who persist with blatant sexism do get warned and banned from the site, as do those who are blatantly racist or homophobic. However, these overtly sexist members are just the tiny tip of a large iceberg. The L&D forum is rife with subtle misogyny and misanthropy.

I totally agree more action needs to be taken, I respect women with the up-most respect. I hope so far not being here so long I have not said anything to offend anybody in a sexist way, being the kinda of effeminate guy I am I have always understood women a bit better (at least I think) and this should not go on I'm strongly against any form of sexism or in that matter fact talking of women in a sole sexual way or talking bad of them because your a guy and you want to find a girl and you blame your relationship troubles break up whatever on the girl. I will add that will everybody has their tendency's I dislike those people who talk of women in a whole sexual manner its disgusting, You have my complete support on this yes their dose need to be opinion but people not to be educated sadly that women are not toys.

Also I'd like to add that while I myself am desperate to have a Girlfriend, I'm not gonna blame girls for not paying attention or s**t like that I get I'm not suited to everybody and that the reason I'm where I am is I don't have to balls to ask a Girl out but I'm trying to work on that not complain after all relationships are something that people will want because they want them so AS guys if you get turned down don't complain, instead think well she not in to me so why the F**k would you wanna be with her even if its attraction, just move and keep trying till you find the right girl and for peat sake make sure to treat her right and respect her rights as a women!

Honesty, from my perception (seemingly biased, because I am male), I don't believe most of the male members of this website are blatantly sexist.

Of course, there are many sexist remarks on the L & D website. I don't believe most males who are members actually post on that subforum.

I believe most of the sexist remarks are what may be termed "baiting" remarks. These people are having fun at others' expense. With those remarks, they are seeking to get attention which they might not be able to obtain otherwise. There is much "back and forth" between the genders. people react to each other, frequently, with hyperbole. I would bet that most of the people who express misogynist beliefs are ranting and venting; they are not like that in "real life."

Obviously, blatantly sexist remarks, and remarks against the female gender in general, must be attended to. As must remarks against the male gender--which do exist as well.

I reiterate: I don't believe most male members of this forum hold blatantly misogynist viewpoints.

The spirit of the vast majority of Wrong Planet is anti-anything which might be offensive. Of course, within any collective, there will be exceptions, I believe Wrong Planet is a classic example of the "bad apples" ruining it for the majority who only seek to grow and prosper.

Agreed, and many good points have been brought up here. Sexism is an unfortunate reality not just within this community, but throughout the general global population. And there are no real answers. Sure, we all would wish to 'punish' people who are cruel and callous in this world, or the Wrong Planet microcosm, but then who would be left? And does punishment 'solve' the moral dilemma of any sexist? Unfortunately, there are no easy solutions.

Instead, the only way we all can address sexism (or any injustice) is through education, to be made consciously aware, to listen to each other respectfully. And for each to set a good example.