Why does society make it so much work to be a woman?!

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This stuff has been going on since antiquity and has been perpetuated by men and women alike. It will continue to go on as long as humans walk the Earth. It is nothing that will change with protest, wisdom, or thought.

Women who wear makeup, and the men who want them, I don't resent. I just wish more men were aware of what the reality of women without makeup actually looks like, and that people would stop making the assumption that youth and beauty are among my top concerns because I'm female. They are not.

Maybe cavewomen wore some kind of crude make up, but they didn’t have to worry about looking young, because they were actually young when they attracted mates, had sex with them, bore children and brought them up. In fact, most people didn’t live to be anything but young, provided they made it past infancy, that is. Maybe the problem is that we no longer let our young enjoy their youth, so we sorely miss it and try to hold on to it when we become independent, and, by that time, it’s too late.

Also, strong and independent women who live interesting lives probably have less to regret when they see their wrinkles, scars and white hairs than those who stuck to their beauty as their only means of getting ahead in life. The former aren’t very different from strong and independent men.

Then get out of this thread. This forum is for women's discussion and I was here first participating before you barged in with your opinions about women and makeup. Seriously, stop posting in this thread.

^The thread is for anyone to post in, but people will choose not to post if its derailed by bickering.

There are some make up products that make the standard look easier to achieve, I used to wear eyeliner and mascara for special occasions but have started using false lashes instead... so much quicker and pretty too.

It makes no difference if you're a woman or a man. We all make life hard for ourselves.

I'm not the OP.

Seriously wilbur it not worth getting this frustrated over. You can ignore him or make your case.

As he wasn't referring to you, why does it matter who joined the conversation first?

People have different opinions, it almost comes across that you don't tolerate that someone can have a different view than you. I saw this in L&D section too. There is a differnce between disagreement/refuting and what you are doing telling people they don't have the right to a view. This thread is not marked as women only, he is entitled to his own view. It is not a good precedent where a views can't be challenged.

All anecdotal experience is exactly that, doesn't matter if it is from a man or a woman. We all have cognitive bias.

@Spiderpig it is kind of redundant and silly to do the line "I'm not talking to you". Seriously what is the point? Just don't respond to them.

See this is where I'm not wholly convinced. I'm not sure in what way men could have perpetrated women's makeup habits, and is there any historical or anthropological evidence for this? Heterosexual men generally know little about women's beatification habits. Well men are more feminized these days and doing some of the makeup too. However this also happened in ancient times too. Tribal makeup was for other reasons too. Still I don't really see it as much of a conspiracy against women.

I think the taboo subject is female competition. Ask any biologist or behaviorist, the elephant in the room is that women compete with one another and the is the driving force behind many of these behaviors. It is true for other animals and primates so why wouldn't it be true for humans? Of course it has something to do with men, but that is not the same as saying they a responsible. Or it is some patriarchal conspiracy.

If I was to give my answer why it is hard for many women in this case, female competition would be on the top of the list. Not the only reason but a big one.

If men aren't aware of what women look like without makeup, could they be blamed for this? Personally I am aware, but I am astounded to learn just how much of a transformation it can be. I had no idea at one point.

Also there is little moral high ground what one finds attractive. If a person doesn't find x attractive, they can't complain if someone doesn't find y attractive about them. Yes there are some beauty memes but it is also quite personal. Real life is just like that, not ideally padded. There are harsh realities, but it is part of normal preference.

You have to look at who actually sets women's beauty trends. It is not heterosexual men that are behind glossy women's mags, and the appearance and body types within. There is market for them clearly, as there is with magazine like Hello!

But what drives female competition? Most women aren't competing with each other for mates, they're competing for social/societal power. In a patriarchy this power comes from men, which is why looking attractive makes many women feel more secure and powerful.
Have you ever seen an unattractive female and an attractive female have an argument? I saw it over and over in school, and every time the males in the room would side with the more attractive female. Adult society functions the same way. In every circumstance, a more attractive woman is treated as more "valuable" than a less attractive one. That is what feeds women's desire for fashion mags, etc. Not a desire for a mate, but a desire for social safety and respectful treatment.

This is basically the crux of the matter you are assuming two things:

1. Power is fixed not dynamic.
2. All of societal problems can be explained through an overarching term like patriarchy.

Some things are patriarchal but that term is used far too lazily. It is very easy to have a catch all term for all society ills.

However I think even under your scenario, people still have to take responsibility for their own actions.

Yes, thank you so much for coming in to this thread and explaining that women feeling pressure to look feminine and wear makeup is all our own fault and we do it to ourselves. That's SO helpful and definitely something none of us have ever been told before, certainly not by a man. Thank you Zero, I understand now and it has all been resolved, just like that! I guess there's no need to continue the discussion then since it's been resolved, so you might as well leave the thread now. Thanks so much for your input and for fixing everything for us women!

1. Societal power is largely fixed, yes.
2. No, I don't think that and didn't say it.



It's not my scenario because I don't think patriarchy explains all society's ills, and I agree that people are responsible for their own actions. I was trying to explain WHY some people choose the actions they do.

It is counter argument. Usually a good thing.

Also you missed the point it is isn't that is the fault or woman or man, it is that that the responsibility is not some conspiracy of man against woman as is implied.

The actual culture itself, since we often talk of male cultures that may be destructive, is not something that men set up. It was something women were actively involved in developing.

You might read some of the earlier points where I asked for historical and anthropological evidence of men setting up these modern women's beauty regimes.

Often it is the other way round for instance high heals where women copied men's fashion, and modern mascara which was essentially mustache wax applied to the the lashes in the 1920s.

Men an women have often chosen to change their appearance and can decide to do so on their own accord.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 07 Aug 2016, 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Indeed, thanks for all your help. Bye Bye now!

p.s.--PPR is the place for counterargument, not Women's Discussion.

Tells me all I need to know. You don't want people to disagree with you especially if it is coming from a man. You want people to go away so you don't have worry about others having opinions differing from yours, and you can believe what ever you want without question.

Last edited by 0_equals_true on 07 Aug 2016, 3:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.