Being female and being opinionated.

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I am just wanting to get ideas (opinions I guess ) on this topic. It seems to me that if you are a male and you are an opinionated person you can somehow get away with it, it seems that to express your opinions in a vehement way is something that society finds an ok behaviour in a man, but if you are a woman and you have very strong opinions it is considered... unladylike?

I dont know, but it appears to me that women are expected to not have as strong opinions as men.

Or maybe it is just me. Maybe I am just so off the chart opinionated that my personality arouses opposition and would do so if I was male. But I have always suspected I would be more popular if I had the same personality but I was inside a male body instead of a female one, my personality seems to be more male in some ways.

I just feel that having a bold personality and expressing yourself is easier if you are male, but if you are female you are expected to be quieter.

one thing i noticed at school, work, other places is that people who are less opinionated, who sort of have a complacent view of things, tend to be more popular, whatever gender. I guess they fit in better and dont rock the boat. If only I was like that.

Anyway just some thoughts and I would welcome any comments.

I think you're right. Thousands of years of conditioning doesn't change overnight.Many people feel instinctively threatened by an opinionated woman and probably aren't even aware of why that is.

yes, there is still sexism- damn! yes, there is still a double standard- double damn! alpha males will be alpha males, and they will continue to blithely get away with murder, until god knows when. this said, being "opinionated" is one thing, being tactless and cruel is quite another. ann coulter is clearly in the latter category. if you wish to be like ann coulter, that isn't something i'd consider particularly prideworthy, in that there is already an abundance of meanness in this world, so there's no sense in adding to it. OTOH, hilary clinton is just as opinionated but i'd say she is not tactless and cruel, so from my point of view i would much prefer listening to ms. clinton than ms. coulter.
so if i were the OP, i would stop worrying about "being ladylike" and start worrying about how to position yourself [speaking figuratively] so that you can "get away with" being outspoken without catching any flack for doing so. with either gender, couching opinions with honey is more generally palatable, than with vinegar. i would not despise ann coulter so much if she weren't so outright mean [she goes way beyond disrespect] to folk not of her political persuasion. i would feel the same discomfort for any woman [or man] who was not civil. that means no ad hominem attacks, or anything which goes beyond polite discourse and merges into verbal mayhem.
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i'm just a milquetoast so don't shoot me

I'ts true, unless the girl is hot and popular. And even so some men may find her annoying. I used to get into trouble for my opinions. People stared weirdly while guys got away. And I wasn't indisciplined or anything. Just a nerd with opnions

If the girl is hot, then men get uncomfortable if she says something intelligent because her "purpose" is to be hot and attractive. If she's not attractive then she's a screeching harpy.. Sexism is no longer acceptable to be said explicitly but alas it still quite prevalent. Women who are just as outspoken as men are rated negatively by society, where the same behaviour by a man is praised.

Male or female, I don't care as long as they
leave me be.

It's stupid that even after women are considered equal to men, in general, women are still expected to be one of 2 things: 1. a beautiful, yet stupid, bombshell, or 2. the smart, but meek and opinion-less woman.

Even more disgusting is that 2 people, one man, one woman, in the same job, at the same company, for the same amount of time with the same credentials, the man will still get paid more than the woman.

Politeness, less vehemence, and allowing the other person to disagree without being attacked should help.

My first instinct tells me this is a misandrist posting. I personally have never felt threatened or intimidated by intelligent women. I feel that if someone gives their opinion when it hasn't been asked for (whether they are male or female) is going to be viewed negatively. It gives the appearance that the person is self absorbed.

I've had problems with this all my life.

But I don't think that it's because other women don't have opinions.
It's how bluntly and quickly I blurt them out w/o thinking.
There is not a diplomatic bone in my body.

I also do not 'get' when other people are 'palavaring'.
In other words, say 2 people are appearing to agree with a third just to be agreeable, and I as the 4th person get all "Oh NO, it's not THAT way at all!" That's my lack of reading body language.

That and it's taken me a long time to realise that most people really don't CARE what my wonderful opinion is.

And yes, males tend to debate each other more stridently, but some of that is male posturing. They are trying (in same cases) to see who is the alpha ape. If a female butts into a male debate like that, it looks as though YOU are trying to be the "alpha MALE".

Unless you're in a university setting, or a work environment among equals (you are all on the same team and debating strategy - then by all means pitch in).

If it's strictly social, like a party, you might want to hold back and watch the other women.
(I know...I often get bored by the other women too!)

Or maybe join an Aspie debate team???

No doubt it is a mixture of many things. Part is the sexism already discussed, part is inconsiderate bluntness and poor timing, and part is the people you run with.

I grew up in the rural west where strong, opinionated women are respected if they're intelligent, hard-working, and know what they're talking about because they've experienced it. Don't even think about expressing an opinion about cows, horses, or the guvmint if you've not been slammed into & through the fence a few times by them. Ivory tower intellectuals who've only read about whatever topic is on the table will without exception be shunned, dissed, and if they keep it up, dunked in the horse tank.

Same with the Hillary Clintons of the world... intelligent, hard-working, and she knows what she's talking about because she's lived it. You may disagree strongly with her, but you'll be prone to respecting her none-the-less because of her 'road wear'.

Now, having grown up around strong women, living in a culture of strong, no nonsense women and being accepted among them, I am constantly running into trouble with the so-called civilized urban set who reify tact to the point of deliberate obfuscation, cultivate superficiality, couldn't grow a spine if a gun was held to their head, and would rather talk behind a person's back then tell them they're a jerk to their face. When I waltz in and speak my opinion from my experience, and more extensive reading (beyond the evening news), I'm rude, tactless, mean, thoughtless, competitive, etc.

So... take a look around and see if there are women like Hillary and Madeline Albright in your group... if not, move on. Refine your delivery and hang out with the strong women; the weak are just carrion waiting to happen.

IMHO

I don't care of gender, if I feel like listening
I will listen, if someone is being mean or offends me,
then I will choose NOT to listen anymore and
plug my ears and go away and they can't make
me listen to them. Yes I am immature and stubborn
and I will not grow up.

Thanks for all your posts!
I cannot reply to everyone, there are too many interesting points being brought up!

Thanks to people who understand where i am coming from and dont just think i am a troublemaker. I have been brought up in a family where everythng is debated, it is like a debating chamber at my parents house.. but when I went out in the world it took years to realise that most humans are the polar opposite of my parents...

Auntblabby my political leanings the opposite to Ann Coulters, that is for sure, and I try not to be nasty but occasionally i can get a little so if i see injustice being done. Not often though, I try to be nice 85% of the time. I am still very outspoken though, I am not cool and collected like Hllary...

Thank you to people who have also noticed that females seem to get away with less opinions and seem to be desired to have a more quiet personality. And I agree we should have equal pay for equal work .

Cleo,good point that people may think an opinionated woman trying to be an alpha'
Little do people know that nothing could be further from the truth for an aspie though, it is just a love of information and learning which I think motivates us.

Donkeybuster, thanks for your post, it expressed to me a lot about how I feel. I feel like I have the wrong personality for a female body. i do feel more comfortable around men, and women who have a bold personality, purely because i dont have to "watch myself " as much.

I wsh i could go into it all in more depth, anyway I hope to see some more replies and opinions...

My looks disarm me. I would not say I was "pretty" but my fiance thinks that I am striking.....I am also incredibly opionionated, but also like others opnions. I am merely searching for good conversation.

Some women are terrified of me, men are drawn by my looks but are often left asking if I am gay (why do gay women get painted with the masculine, opinionated brush all the time?). I say, well that is a stereotype if there ever was one, but thanks for thinking I am, you idiot.

I can be very condescending and patronising if the situation calls for it, but I am also very caring and compassionate when people are sick.

I like people to just take me as I am. I do try very hard to be nice though

Mics

I get the impression heaps of men are more into the whole "women should be seen and not heard" thing. Most guys are not attracted to loud women.... so thats an example of it.

A man recently said to me "can't you speak quieter, its very unattractive"

Its the same sort of thing. Loud is associated with opinionated.

I do not agree that this notion can be used as a generality for most western men. I don't personally know any men who wouldn't be attracted to an pretty, smart, opinionated, tactful woman.

For example, my father, prior to marrying his current wife(his 2nd marriage), and still sometimes today, falls into spontaneous, star-struck revelry where he laments, "That woman is a genius, she is the smartest person I know." He looks off into elsewhere, totally consumed by his admiration for her, which is a massive part of what he loves about her.

For further example, I am specifically attracted to strong, somewhat argumentative, logical women who are smart, and they know it. I will not lie: as an attractive, intelligent, and capable man, I seek beauty in my eventual wife, but, in equal part, I seek a personality that I respect, which includes a strong will and sense of self.

These examples are easily not universal, not at all. But I resent the notion that it's a stereotype that's worth paying attention to. I do not believe most western men want a "Seen & Not Heard" kind of woman.

Bare in mind that:
A) The types who are misogynistic or chauvinistic are very visible in our memories. They are recollected far easier than... say... EVERYONE ELSE. Objectivity is to be strove for here. Although men and women have tons of double-standards to deal with, let's not allow ourselves to start seeing overly-simplified 'double-standards' around every corner.

B) If you see discrimination that appears based on your strength of will, consider that perhaps it's not that you have your own opinion, but that you do not present it well. Anyone who's bullish, coarse, and otherwise lacking tact with their contrarian opinions chafes on people, be it either men or women.

With that said, I will agree that men can 'get away with' this a bit more than women. This can be seen in the fact that people often accept their annoying and tactless behavior and might laugh it off, where in comparison people might avoid the equally annoying woman. However, I don't think men can be blamed for this. Why? Because male society is shaped by women in such a large way.

Consider that women are flat out attracted to men who are intelligent and confident. These are some of the universally primary attractors for women. These qualities, in effective combination with other supporting qualities, evoke lust, the basis of love and relationships. So, yes, willful behavior in men is more accepted because that's the behavior women basically want to see. We're doing what you're telling us to do. It could certainly be improved to be more tactful and less annoying, but so long as they are confident and intelligent, that's more sexually attractive than tactful, humble, and simple. Due to this manner of sexual selection, there's more tolerance for this behavior in men.

Furthermore, consider the social jockeying games that men play with each other. Our games of dominance over one-another, our hazing and conditioning, they way we probe each other for weakness, our constant fight to climb up the heap competing against one-another. Argumentation is one of the key ways we assert social dominance. Note that women are more attracted to socially powerful men. In comparison, men don't particularly factor in a woman's social power in their selection process.

Also consider the stereotype that women are more consensus-seeking, more cooperative, etc. Personally, I don't know if I believe that or not, but if it's true, then that plays in as well.

My point is that if there is a double-standard here(and I question it's relevance in Western society), it's not purely men's fault, and men do not deserve unequal blame for it.