"She's gorgeous AND smart"

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I was chatting at another site with someone about a successful woman she knows who's getting some publicity lately in her native country, and she was singing her friend's praises--"She's gorgeous and smart. We'll all be hearing more from her." It irked me so much I excused myself from the discussion.

I'm smart. F#cking wicked smart. So smart that sometimes I wish I wasn't so smart, because maybe then I could get along with other people better, because I can't turn my damn brain off and act like a normal woman even for a few seconds. But I'm definitely not gorgeous. And when I hear people say things like that it upsets me because my experience as a not-terribly-attractive yet really smart woman has been that if you're smart but not pretty, people resent you for being smart. But if you're pretty and smart to boot, then they sing your praises.

It's like if you're a woman, it's only 'proper' to be smart if you're nice to look at first and foremost. Otherwise people act like it's rude to draw attention to yourself by your intelligence. No one wants to look at you, so didn't matter how smart you are. Just shut up and be quiet so we can all just pay attention to the smart girls who are pretty.

I've been dealing with this crap since I was a little girl. I hate it. I've never found a good way to deal with it.

very sadly, and very unfortunately, women are still subconsciously thought of my many men and brainwashed women as property or prize cows, and judge us solely by appearances. "oh what? her estrogen levels weren't high enough in puberty to give her huge tits, a tiny nose, and perfect skin? she must not be fertile enough to bear us more sons. away with her!"

If it makes you feel any better, me and many other guys I've seen on here would much rather have a smart not-so-good-looking girl than a stupid good looking one.

Also remember that looks are subjective. Supermodels and the like are ugly IMO, but other girls most guys think are just average, or indeed below average, have been girls I thought were beautiful.

i agree with you, this is totally messed up. A typical example of this is the tv-show Bones: everybody loves the main character because she's smoking hot and they in a sense 'forgive' her for being a genius and having terrible social skills. Much less people would watch that show if a less attractive woman was playing the role a Brennan. But they are some guys, and i say some because they're few, that loves a woman for what is inside, regardless of what's on the outside.

I find people overrate my intelligence because I speak quite formally and dress quite conservatively (because I don't really like my body and I always feel cold). If you're not very good looking and not obviously stupid, people assume that you're clever. It's like people assuming that pretty girls are usually dumb.

Being a mousy looking brunette gets me lots of weird positive stereotyping. People are more likely to believe you're smart if you're not pretty. I find people don't resent you for it, unless you challenge a man's opinions, especially an alpha male's opinions, or if you try to attract attention away from pretty girls. The pretty girls must always get attention, whether they want it or not.

You have to sit in the background, quietly getting things done. That's the role they have in mind for you. I've got used to it, though I'm really not much above average in terms of intelligence.

I think you inadvertently hit the nail on the head, as they say: Being intelligent, as a woman, is something to be "forgiven," regardless of whether one is attractive or not. It is easier for a physically attractive woman to be forgiven this characteristic, but it is something she suffers for as well. Aside from with the rare man who legitimately appreciates and does not feel threatened or emasculated by an intelligent woman.


It's pedantic (forgive me, please--I'm an Aspie, after all), but this is not quite how it works, biologically-speaking. Still, the point is valid. Perhaps I should thank my small boobs and imperfect skin--I don't fare well when faced with too much male attention.

Just the headline by itself sent me into a 5 minute fit of laughter. Gorgeous and smart? Wow! Never mind that they are both subjective, a female human being that isn't just one or the other, or neither? HOW RARE A CREATURE!! Johnson, get the camera, we found the Holy Grail! This would look good in my photo collection. See how her eyes are blue and her hair is blonde and her stomach isn't protruding and her boobs are big? That means she is gorgeous! See how she puts complete sentences together? That means she is gorgeous because otherwise! TAKE HER TO THE ZOO!

I agree with both of you. Bones is an excellent example. i have a genius level IQ and piss poor social skills, but I can't be forgiven for those awful crimes because I'm not pretty. I have been told to "settle" and to "dumb it down" and to try to not "show up" men. I suspect if I was as pretty, tall and bony thin as Emily Deschanel, I would be told things like "Don't settle" or "Don't sell yourself short--you're too smart for that!" or "If you make a guy feel insecure, just move on--you deserve a guy who can respect you for who you are."

I think that's the real insult there--the societal message that says since I'm not pretty, I cannot be appreciated for who I am and that I should accept a lesser life than what a prettier woman of comparative intelligence could have.

@Kaybee--Yes, such men are rare. I've know a few--all very happily married to bright women they adored. But for me, I've dated plenty of men who said they preferred smart women to pretty women only to discover that what what most men really want is 1) a girlfriend (as opposed to an intellectual peer) who 2) doesn't make them look shallow, and 3) doesn't make them feel threatened or insecure. I am good at dazzling men with my intellect, but once I start dating them, it's clear they want me to knock the "smart girl shtick" off pretty quickly because they can't keep up with me. Then that's when the patronizing, sarcasm and little barbed comments start.

I earnestly want an intellectual peer in a man--I yearn for it. Men of lesser intelligence have literally driven me to tears out of intellectual boredom. For me intellectual stimulation and sexual/romantic attraction are inseparable. I can't "dumb down" in a relationship--if I can't find the intellectual stimulation, there's no attraction, so there's no point. But I live in a society where being this smart and needing that intellectual stimulation is not acceptable for a woman, unless, as you both pointed out, she's pretty enough to be forgiven of it.

I've never really interpreted the smart/pretty comment as "smart women are forgiven as long as they're pretty," I interpret that as "however good women are at something, it doesn't count if they're not also pretty." So basically, what you already said:

It's probably because the line I usually hear runs backwards. It's not "She's gorgeous AND smart," it's "She's smart AND gorgeous." Except for we don't really say "gorgeous" around here, and the positive attribute isn't limited to being smart. It's anything from "funny" or "cool" to "a kick-ass skateboarder" or "a sick guitarist."

I ranted about this once on some forum, and much to my disappointment most of the replies I got ran along the line of "What's wrong with wanting to be pretty?" Not surprisingly, such reply came from girls who had (successfully) done everything they could to be conventionally attractive even if they didn't necessarily look girly or have blonde hair and big breasts.

For various reasons, finding out that some girls DO want to conform to society's standard of physical attractiveness just made me so sad.

it does suck that people are judged on appearances over other things like intelligence.

It is sad that loads of people are working really hard to look the same, because if everyone did look the same, society would be boring.

How attractive one is does make it more likely for a person to be more selective with partners.
I will admit, I don't think large breasts or perfect appearance plays much into it either, those are largely subjective features and mens taste vary a great deal there. I do think how much one weighs does play a large role though.
Women are judged largely on weight at first. A thin woman who may be flat chested is not necessarily at the same disadvantage of an obese woman, in fact the thin woman is probably considered very attractive. She still has her pick of potential partners and still gets to be selective.

Intellect does matter in relationships, but it is not the initial thing most people look at. Being smart is NOT something to be forgiven in a woman, especially an attractive woman, it is something guys do look for, especially smart guys. But being obese is something that is likewise frequently passed on by men.

Looks matter in this way, you don't need to be a perfect large breasted, perfect face blond. I am a bookish burnette who is not always well put together, but I know just by being relatively thin (which is in the normal range for BMI) I have the luxury of being more selective for potential partners. I don't have large breasts or a perfect face. Being intelligent and not having kids helps me even more though. Dating and finding adult relationships can be extremely cruel. People discriminate based on their own factors, both men and women. With women it is frequently more abstract, but women can be just as cruel as men. Intellect is not something to be forgiven with women though, it is usually something that men seek out. But they are still looking for somebody who is relatively attractive to them as well.

Last edited by starygrrl on 27 Dec 2010, 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

i completely agree with this. i only have dated people i found really attractive, but other people sometimes didn't understand my choices because taste is so individual.

OP - there are people out there who will find you beautiful, even if you don't have traditionally perfect looks. you should believe those people when they tell you you are beautiful, because to them it is true, and who cares about the rest of the world's opinion?

you have to be gorgeous to get anyone to listen.

it's a dumb world.

one that drives me batty is "she's a complete package"

i don't think i need to explain why.

I would have to disagree with you. I think women who are smart AND pretty are more despised by other women than women who are just smart or just pretty.

However, many women might simply resign themselves to the fact they just can't compete, and humble themselves, like your friend.

I agree with this one, even though I put myself down all the time. I won't argue with my partner when he says I'm beautiful!

Dear Mercurial:

Don't settle

Don't sell yourself short--you're too smart for that!

If you make a guy feel insecure, just move on--you deserve a guy who can respect you for who you are.

I was considered the height of hideousness as a child and teen.
As an adult, I am now considered by many to be quite attractive.
I have been ugly, and I have been beautiful.
I have always, however, been both intelligent and intellectual. My biggest problems have always occurred when I get caught up in the way other people perceive me, or might perceive me, or what have you. My appearance is not conventionally attractive, I am of mixed race, and I have a few visible disfigurements.
I have never been overly concerned about my appearance, although I do worry about the manner in which i present myself.

I don't know. this issue is difficult for my to explain very well. Feminine Ideals infuriate the crap out of me.

And I think a few of you are missing an important point with Bones: she is excruciatingly lonely and has never had a successful relationship. She may be admired, but even her "friends" can't get close to her.

Mercurial: what I'm trying to say is something along the lines of: when you're a wicked smart Aspie female, physical appearance doesn't matter that much. People who will appreciate you are much more important than people who care about some kind of ridiculous Feminine Ideal. I wouldn't want those kind of people around me, and I don't gather that you do, either.

i hope these disparate comments come together into some sort of cohesive opinion. If not, well...I tried.