Feminism

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People have different views about what feminism is. Feminism should be positive and support respect for women without putting down males or women who do not consider themselves feminist for whatever reason.

Some people argue that if you believe that women should vote and get equal pay then you are a feminist and ignore many other issues that some feminists support that others do not. It also depends on the culture in which a person lives. A feminist in an Arab or African country would not be dealing with the same issues as someone in India or Britain.

I'm more of the liberal feminist, who is for equality in the workplace, and in the doctor's office. I'm also sick of victims being blamed for allowing the rape or other form of abuse to occurr.

Crimethinkful,

I agree with you. I also consider myself an "equity feminist," meaning people are deserving of basic human rights. People should push themselves to excel because they want to do it, not to conform to some standard set either by men or by women.

The men in an Arab or African country probably wouldn't let a feminist there deal with the same issues as one in other countries.

The idea of feminism on its own seems a bit uneven, without the company of another ideal of equal footing with which it is essentially intertwined: Nobody deserves to be hurt or abused, men or women, and, let's face it, men and women both are and have been victims of both themselves and each other in any number of ways. While its goals are noble, much of feminism seems to stem from one of the very ideas I see it as trying to rebel against: The antiquated concept that women are weaker than men, which is an idea that has historically placed females below males and on equal footing with children.
While it is largely thanks (indirectly) to these ideals that society has taken steps forward in preventing and fighting against the abuse of women by males, the flip side of these societal ideals as a (possibly unconscious) motivating factor in feminism is that the abuse of men by women or the abuse of women by other women (the latter unfortunately fetishized by today's pornography) are issues rarely if ever taken seriously by the government or the media, and are often treated as a joke by those whose perceptions are influenced by the attitudes espoused by the modern media.
I hope that made sense?

I know this is terribly unpolitic of me to throw out there, but women are weaker than men.

After a year of jujitsu, with my body in pretty good condition, I'm pretty sure that I could beat a woman my size with enough of a training difference. Guys, though, it's a bit more of a crapshoot. . . and I do fight them regularly, so I should know. I attribute this to both

a) the cultural influence that means guys have usually thought more about how to fight and had more experience
and
b) testosterone, which increases muscle density and strength. . . leading to the ugly truth that a lot of guys my size who don't work out remotely as much as I do are a hell of a lot stronger. Body fat ain't so useful in a fight.

I'd be happy for the law- or cultural prejudice- to draw a line between stronger people and weaker rather than men and women, but weaker people do face a substantially greater difficulty in defending themselves, and so ought to have increased protection under the law.

Also, of course different cultures will deal with different specifics. . . as far as I'm concerned the underlaying foundation of feminism is that people are equal, and that none of us deserve maltreatment. With this guiding principle and a great deal of common sense and research, any situation may be addressed.

Feminism only bears laying out as a seperate thing because, as an application of the principle of equality, it is so different culturally from what has gone before.

As for a), I'd like to point out that Cultural influence is constantly changing, and, if you've been watching even a few TV shows or action movies lately (or playing videogames in the vein of Mortal Kombat, etc.), a growing number of them depict female characters in combat situations.
It should also be noted that in fight scenes in films and movies that depict a woman fighting a man, it is generally seen as only acceptable and politically correct if the woman wins (regardless of which character is being depicted as the hero of the story, or even which character is physically larger/stronger. I actually thought about this in depth after watching a few episodes of Dark Angel, as pathetic as it is to read cultural subtexts into something intended as pure entertainment).
b) is a little harder to argue with, but in the less often reported cases in which a female is the perpetrator of rape, beatings or other forms of domestic violence and a male the victim, it is likely that the male involved will feel an obligation not to fight back for fear of hurting the woman who is hurting him.
It should also be noted that a physically weaker person, if they feel a need to bring harm to another, may compensate for their lack of muscle mass by using a weapon to the same effect.
As for your definition of feminism, I agree with the concept of complete equality for all people.
While researching some of the topics I mentioned here, I came across a few articles at by both male and female authors that seem to approach gender issues from a fairly progressive and enlightened perspective (i.e. straying away from angry extremism and tending more towards the branches of feminism that place emphasis on gender equality rather than the superiority of one gender over another), which has caused me to somewhat rethink what I previously percieved as feminism. Their perception seems fairly close to what you defined (complete equality), although "feminism" is a somewhat uncomfortable term given the fact that, despite its emphasis (or the emphasis of some of its branches) on complete equality, the name only applies to only a little more than fifty percent of the human population, thus (at least nominally) excluding the rest, which is why I've come to refer to myself as more "gender equalitarian" than "feminist" in my personal views.

In principle, I must agree; gender egalitarian is what we're really looking for.

In practice. . . well, goodness, we can vote and own property, what am I complaining about?


Imho, increased in portrayals of women in combat situations doesn't necessarily represent progress.

What I was actually referring to in terms of cultural influence was more along the lines of this-

Recently I was sitting around with a couple of guy friends and the subject of fights came up. Besides the fact that their war stories had gone quite differently than mine, it became quite clear to me that each of them had thought quite a lot from an early age about tactical fighting details; what to do in what sorts of situations, and how. I hadn't actually been in less fights than either of them, and the odds had been a lot worse in mine for obvious reasons (like numbers). However, despite my very reasonable interest in, attempts to learn about, and experience with self defense, both of them had far better basic background in street fighting. They had handie suggestions like, "Four of them and one of you? Hit very hard to the trachea as often as possible. Also, make your first punch count; there's some possibility of scaring the others off." and "Try biting. You may loose a fight, but you haven't really lost the fight if you took a huge f-ing chunk of their arm out with you- or at least, they haven't won."

Sometimes I even wonder if shows like Dark Angel and Mortal Kombat have a destructive influence when it comes to women's positions in violent situations; as you've noted, they often portray women- even women who are supposed to be normal humans- as being supernaturally fast and strong, clean, powerful fighters.

Real fights can be incredibly messy, and even the nicer ones can usually be described as anything but clean. As such, I'm not sure this is doing anyone any favors. I know it's supposed to just be entertainment, but if entertainment didn't have any impact on how we perceve ourselves and the world, there would be no product placement and no lines of action figures.

Just some things to think about.

Well, there is the whole issue of women being paid lower wages for no logical reason that I can think of. That's something that definitely needs to be sorted out.

Is it lower wages for the same job for the same hours as a man or because they are working an average of fewer hours than men overall?

Rosie O' Donnel is a pig. I think womens studies and all that s**t is nonsense too. Women have it easier in our society. They have less responsibility, less expectations, more sympathy, etc.. Even our education system admits that the continued uneven focus on girls, is starting to leave boys behind. I recognized sexism against men at a very young age. In elementary school. Most "civil rights" groups dont want equal rights at all. But exclusive rights for their own group. Like black groups with affirmative action, gays with hate crime legislation, etc..
I have no problem with giving equal rights to anybody, but I am against exclusive rights.

And people who blame the victim for rape are charlatans. But our laws still favor the victim. I mean look at this girl in the Duke case. She was protected so much. She lied forever and accused these guys of a serious felony, ruined their lives, and wasted so many public resources. And the government said they wont file charges against her for making all this s**t up. Women are very favored in the legal system. The biggest factor in the disparity of sentencing of criminals, is not between black or white, rich or poor. But male or female. Women get off much easier for the same crimes.

While I disagree with much of what you've said (being personally in favor of affirmative action and legislation protecting gays from hate crimes, among other things), I have to concur with you about some of this, especially the point you just made, as it reminded me of a judge in my old hometown (before I moved to Tallahassee) who sentenced a teenage boy to ten years in prison for stealing a six-pack from a neighbors' garage. Ironically enough, this same judge gave five months in prison to a woman who bit a man's ear off in an aggravated assault case, and, not only that, but let a female pedophile (who btw was a web design teacher at the school I used to go to) go free.
Anyway, one interesting point I wanted to bring up is political affiliations in relation to gender issues: Why must women's rights groups be solely associated (by themselves and by popular consciousness) with left-wing politics, whereas when men complain that they are being discriminated against they usually tend to associate themselves with right-wing politics?
Making gender discrimination a partisan issue (as it seems to be) just seems a bit odd to me.

I'm not sure, but I was always under the impression that it was the former.

I think "feminism" is useless as a descriptive term, because it just covers way too broad a spectrum, and too many views ranging from common sense to the lunatic fringe. It is completely possible that someone is okay with the principle of "equal rights for women", but will shy away from the term because they associate it with radicals such as Dworkin.

I do think it's a good thing that ideas that would have seemed wildly radical fifty years ago have inconspicuously become common sense--things the majority just knows to be true.

And I agree, the strict division of gender roles also came down hard on men who didn't follow the rules, and also had a lot of hidden costs along with the obvious advantages--always be strong and silent, be completely responsible for women, don't get too close to your children, don't ever be "effeminate", don't show affection to your own gender, always be the initiator of romance or sex.

On the wage gap-

It is for the same hours. IMHO, the issue is really about what jobs (traditionally male ones) receive the highest pay, and about maternity leave, policies that deal with parenting and how that effects a career, and so forth.

I think the only way for women to attain real equality- which must include economic equality- is for our society to address parenting and make supporting it a priority, on the part of both parents.


On Wiggerbeater-

How does one go about getting this guy banned for- shall we say, disrespectufully presenting his argument? But most especially in the women's forum. . .

Aww... are you a victim here?