Consent

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Hi! Sorry for starting a new topic, but L&D? No way. Here, the moderation has permission to be more strict. Men will have more interest in the answers, particularly the lurkers.

I cared about consent from since, idk, playing doctor. Later, as adult men told me about women, and what to do, things got less clear, worse, and eventually rejected. Seeing the tone of the debate, and recognizing this as an autism forum, I wondered about a topic for sex positive autistic women to talk about what consent means.

I don't know if you feel clear on it. It seems some of the men do not feel clear on it. In their interest, it would be particularly useful to hear about men missing positive signals, and not just missing negative signals.

One idea I have stirring around involves the complexity of consent and the complexity of the sex. I mean, serious role play should probably have a written agreement if it involves sex and consent.

The simple stuff may cause more problems. How do people indicate whether they have a temporary or ongoing interest in sex? I don't really have an ear to the ground regarding the current standing of exclusivity.

Pray to St Jude for this thread, maybe.

Personally, if in a new relationship I would bring up a discussion about sex in a private moment (but not on the first date ). For a casual hookup, I don't know anything other than inviting her to your home for a drink.

That probably isn't much help.

I feel the best way to determine "consent" is to not assume "consent."

"Graduated steps," to me, is the best way to determine whether a woman wants to make love with me. Kissing; fondling; undoing buttons, zippers, etc; caressing her in various places over and under her clothes......Unless she seeks to do the same to me, I would not consider that she consented. I would stop.

As an initial overture, I would kiss her hand. If she doesn't mind that, I might caress her fingers. If she pulls away, or says something negative verbally, then there's no consent, and I stop. To me, it's obvious when a person doesn't want to be touched in a certain way.

In these instances, I wouldn't want a lady to be a passive party--I would want her caress me, too. This would confirm consent. If she doesn't caress me, then I would have my doubts.

I think it's better if couples talk about things like consent before "anything happens."

Then...I might see if she would to kiss me. If she pulls away, or otherwise doesn't actively seek to kiss ME, then I'm stopped dead in my tracks. I go no further.

The same with fondling, licking, stuff like that.

When it comes to making love itself, I don't find that a woman consents unless she takes an active part in making me "ready," and in allowing me easy entry into her Lovely Gates. If it is not "easy entry," then I would seriously doubt consent.

When I was at university, they made it very clear that people should get explicit consent to sex. This was important because some people, particularly girls, freeze up out of fear when a man is making unwanted moves on her, and he might mistake her lack of explicit rejection as consent. So I think it's best to ask if she wants you to stop or continue at various points. She might be ok with some touching, but not kissing. She might be ok with kissing, but not groping. She might be ok with kissing and groping but not sex. Or she might be ok with all of it. But it's probably best to get verbal confirmation.

When I was at university, they made it very clear that people should get explicit consent to sex. This was important because some people, particularly girls, freeze up out of fear when a man is making unwanted moves on her, and he might mistake her lack of explicit rejection as consent. So I think it's best to ask if she wants you to stop or continue at various points. She might be ok with some touching, but not kissing. She might be ok with kissing, but not groping. She might be ok with kissing and groping but not sex. Or she might be ok with all of it. But it's probably best to get verbal confirmation.

I don't get it. You're asking for mens' input in the womens' discussion?

He was probably asking for input primarily from women. But I think consent is an important issue, so I decided to put forward some ideas.

Cultures which expect men to do the asking for consent seem prevalent here, and I perceive a correlation between people who defend those traditional values and those who complain most loudly about the current attitude toward consent.

I remember a lot of situations where I have missed positive signals coming from women who did not appreciate the level of directness necessary to communicate with this aspie. I also remember a few situations from long ago where I missed low-key negative signals, but in those cases I got further feedback and learned to perceive those signals quickly. In the positive cases, I got no further information until either a friend clarified what had happened or I figured it out myself in the same way I figure out other confusing social situations.

Given all that, I feel curious about the experiences of women on the spectrum. Most people understand how unpleasant it feels when another person won't take a negative hint, and that has had a lot of hashing out. However, it feels unpleasant to me when I have missed a positive hint and an opportunity which I would have taken. It seemed likely that others have had that same experience, and this seemed like the most productive place to ask the question.

The challenge seems to be finding a clever but clear way to inquire about interest if non-verbal signals confuse one or the other party.

I'm happily married now and am thankful for that. Prior to finding my beloved, I was a very frustrated teenager. I always wanted a hot stud, and was very blunt and forward about it, but most men thought I was unattractive -- too nerdy and masculine looking, many told me. It's a very small percentage to be in, a woman who is horny as a spike, but can't find a guy for sex. Apparently most other women are propositioned for sex all the time, hate sex, aren't attracted to men. This is the most common experience I read about and hear. It's one of many reasons I don't relate to the standard ideas of femininity. I guess most other women are walking sexual temptations but who never want it and are always upset over these consent things.

To me consent is more a superficial legal manifestation/criterion that's supposed to be the lynchpin of a way of communicating about wants and desires. I find the whole consent thing rather ludicrous, to be honest. I only really can understand it as the tip of a legal iceberg.

That said, it is good for us to encourage people to be more communicative about their intentions. The thing I find frustrating about the idea of 'consent' is that it assumes that we can boil down 'desire' or 'intention' to one split second or question. Especially as a young woman still in university, I find it annoying and anti-romantic and it seems like the young men around me basically poo-poo it.

I felt surprised to learn how many hippies had repressed or even reactionary attitudes toward sex. Right as soon as I turned 18, though AIDS became a big issue in the public spotlight. People had to start talking about sex, and we found it difficult. It's a little disheartening to get the sense that not much has changed in those 30 years. Things have gotten better; older men didn't instruct me that no means no, but rather that no meant keep trying. That was some of the less awful framing that they tried to pass on to me, too.

However, when I hear about some of the behavior in some fraternities, I get the impression that they have internalized all the worst advice I ever heard. For the people with healthy attitudes, however, it seems possible to take consent seriously and also keep the mood exciting. Maybe, NT people don't have as much experience figuring out social situations in an analytical manner, and coming up with a new paradigm.

Consent. Actually wanting the sex act to occur and not being pressured or coerced into it. Men are s**t. I want to take it slow, they don't. They push push push. It's easier than it sounds to pressure a friend into sex. If you really like someone it may be hard to say no. When women are young they don't know how to say no, stop. Or they don't have the confidence. Imagine being bullied in the bedroom.

Not all men do this. Not all women experience this. But I bet most people understand. Whether they admit that they've done it to women, or that it's happened to them, well that's another story. And it goes both ways. Of course it can happen to men too, it's just rarer.

But it is quite simple. Don't pressure, don't push. If your partner looks unsure or quiet, ask.

Yes, I can’t even express how true this is and how important it is that it’s understood and known. Frozen with fear is not just an expression. No one knows how they’ll react in such a situation until they’re there.

Years ago I saw a study about sexual abuse in the military, and I think it was as many as roughly 25% of the women who said they had been frozen when it happened. These are women who are trained to react in a dangerous situation, and even then a significant number freezes.

That’s why it’s so wrong with rape/ sexual assault laws that state that the woman has to have said no and fought against the man (who she very likely wouldn’t be able to fight off anyway and might just endanger herself further if she tried) in order for it to be rape, or that he has to have threatened her.
Thankfully these laws have been or are being changed in several countries now.

Consent means clear consent, in words or action. Preferably words. If in doubt, ask. It’s definitely better to ask and possibly dampen the mood than unknowingly making her feel pressured or even forced.

Your comment makes a lot of sense. I wonder if VR could help people learn to unfreeze from fear. Now that I think about it, it's as much a useful tool for a predator as it is a stumbling block for the unsophisticated.

Also, we had a brief discussion in the adult randomness thread about women feeling like their presence for sex represents a sufficient effort. As a young man, I had lovers who expressed their enthusiasm in other ways, but rarely moved or took any initiative in bed. Hard to distinguish from frozen with fear, were it not for us being in a long term relationship.

Maybe they were frozen with fear of going to hell if they enjoyed sex too visibly and god noticed.

i think it's more straightforward to explain what consent isn't.

-silence/lack of protest or resistance
-assumed to exist based on previous sexual encounters or relationship status
-unchanging (just as a no can become a yes, a yes can become a no at any time)

but i'm glad that you have posted this topic, op, because consent isn't straightforward.

if the person is actively participating in the sexual act, and not through coercive pressure, then it is safe to assume consent. there is no need to say, "wait, hold on..." if they are obviously into it. but the rule of thumb is if there is any doubt whatsoever, ask. if the person is acting like a dead fish, ASK. if they seem unsure or scared but still say yes, back off for a moment and ask them why they are nervous, or whatever is going on. not that it wouldn't be consensual at that point, just that it's not worth it on a human-to-human level to ignore signals of distress because the person has verbally consented.

now, intoxication. the law here is interesting because it's not an absolute so much as it's a safety net. intoxication always means the consent is not legally valid, but if both parties are secure that the consent is there otherwise then having sex while intoxicated isn't really nonconsensual. the law is there to be utilized in cases where a person has actually been taken advantage of, and so it's important to be cautious when it comes to intoxicated sex, but not that every time you have sex while under the influence it has actually been rape.

consent is not black and white but that can be mitigated through being a responsible and decent person...and i think this is where a lot of autistic people in particular get confused. consent can't be understood like an equation.