The ultimate question

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Hate to invade the women's thread but there is something I'm really curious about. I've noticed this for a long time just in fact but it seems like I'm starting to get a feel for it as well (something that's far more important, valuable and necessary since it means its working its way into how you naturally react to things).

I have a lot of guy friends who to tell the truth seem to have their game on pretty well. They're extroverts, they could sell the devil ice, they're funny guys, intelligent, smoke bud and drink like champs, pretty successful in life and the things they do in general, have a lot of interests, regardless of some of the ignorant things they say for the sake of humor they really seem to 'get' life and the world they live in pretty damn well (and any ignorant humor seems to be them just trying to be glib). A couple of those friends have some rather new Yamaha R-series sport-bikes, one's an excellent rider, all 3 are into Japanese performance coups, both of course have had turn-tables (spun either house or jungle in the past), another produces trance.

Here's what I notice about em that trips me out though, while they can land girlfriends and momentary f---buddies they seem to have no luck at keeping a woman. The one was married 2 years and his wife ran off on him with one of his supposed friends, ever since he's been trying to play the field but has had absolutely no luck at finding someone he can stick with. One of the other guys gets into relationships but always gets hurt eventually. Here's what I do notice about 2 of them and the 3rd gets less of these sorts of problems though and I think its all about this factor - the other 2 have a sort of intellectualism deeply rooted into their orientation to things, regardless of how much they can be straight up guys and act like pigs when its socially demanded. I think at least 2 of them were raised with a similar problem to what I have - raised to think of other people as people, they weren't animalistic enough as kids, too intelligent, saw people as people rather than identifying themselves as animals on a subconscious level, and I think they saw and still do see women in a very equal light in all the ways that really seem to turn women off or make them feel like a guy is...well...a dork.

All this really raises a question. Being oriented to life in a way that you take it seriously, even if you guise it well, having a very deeply thought-out and elaborate opinion on things, it seems to show in one way or another no matter how well you think you can hide it. My problem, of course with AS, is the fact that I don't even get that far - I'll have lots of women flirt with me and show interest, I know I'm supposed to show intent right off the top, but usually I've had the habit which I know is dead wrong of engaging the conversation itself rather than purely flirting and if I do try to joke or be funny its too dry and grounded (probably because, being grounded in reality rather than emotion is my comfort zone - cutting my bonds to that is scary s--- because its not an environment where I really have control). Looking at my friends and their troubles, looking at the fact that attraction in and of itself seems to be built on a mode where reflecting wisdom or being rooted in a reality past her (aside from being a chilled-out thug) really kills it, and that intelligent conversation or sensing that sort of intellectual orientation to the world in a guy seems to dissolve a woman's sense of attraction in a guy once she's passed his party glamor and his bike or car - I'm really trying to figure out the schematics of all this in terms of "Ok, I know the wrong way, I do things the wrong way - so, what's the right way?". It does seem like women like to have a guy who's off-balance so not only a) he needs her but b) she can rail on him about little things, flip back and forth on stuff, and he has to take it (though if that sort of nature is as wide-spread with women as I've seen it I can't beat on it because evidently its something that's built too deep to the core for even them to do anything about), the guys I'm mentioning seem like they're self-sustained and level enough to where people realize they couldn't get away with that stuff because there really aren't the right emotional weaknesses in them (or me for that matter) which they can leverage. BTW, with that last part, I'd really like to think that's just the way it appears or the end effect rather than cause but still, I know what kind of world this is and I have to acknowledge seeing it.

Getting past the context and background here's what I want to know - I've come to the understanding of the fact that while women don't mind intelligent guys, intelligent conversation is a complete and absolute turn-off unless it can be funneled into them somehow or spun in a romantic and guileful way. That being said, I'm just trying to sort this out - how would you really explain the basis of reality, constraints, and in general the gist of their states of most NT women's states of consciousness? I ask just because, I want to get it right. Again, I'm one of those people who can't really implement a change in himself successfully without being able to literally feel the framework of it all and getting how it works on an intuitive level. IMO changing myself or people changing themselves in general isn't selling out or being weak, its something you need to do if you find yourself outside the scope of life's core relevance and you desire to make yourself relevant. Rather I'd think stubborn refusal to change in the face of the facts is more than a little pathetic, a bit like just plugging your ears and having a kiddish "I'm not listening to reason" kind of tantrum. I know I'm asking for a lot with this but I also know that there are just as many aspie women here who analyze everything to minutia, gain self-assurance through knowledge, and titrate their way through life just as much - learning the framework, scope, and boundaries of other people's illogic as well as your own (as well as my own in my case) is just part of learning how to deal successfully with what's real and having a grip on the actual world rather than the world of shoulds.

If any of you have some answers to this which you would feel uncomfortable sharing in the forum on account that you think a few of the guys may jump you for it just PM me, I'd prefer the sugar-coating and saccharine stay as far away from this thread or replies as possible (if your worried that what you have to say is too scandalous, searing, or unfair - you don't make the rules, I don't make the rules, why shoot the messenger ). That and if your having trouble with this threads coherence (yeah, I know my writing style is really weird - it bugs me too sometimes) just ask a question and I'll do my best to rephrase it a bit better.

Side note though, I'll may not have computer access from Monday until Friday since I'll be out of town as usual, if I get replies between those times I'll try to respond next weekend.

It's good for men to ask questions rather than assuming they know the answers. Shows you're not too arrogant to think you know everything, a positive quality in my book. I read your post and tried to make some sense of it and tried to answer as best I could.



You say the opposite later in your post. "Rather I'd think stubborn refusal to change in the face of the facts is more than a little pathetic, a bit like just plugging your ears and having a kiddish "I'm not listening to reason" kind of tantrum. " Which is it: how you feel about things or being rational?



They sound like typical NT dudes - I could never relate to that.



I think you need to be clearer about this. Especially the last sentence. I would think seeing women as equals would be a turn-on. Also I really don't get the part about being raised "animalistic".



Again I disagree. Flirting is fun, but if the guy can't have an intelligent conversation, I wouldn't be interested, and I don't think many other women would be either. I don't get why you think you can't have an intelligent conversation with a woman you're flirting with.




Still too difficult to understand.




You may see it but that doesn't mean it's either the right way or the only way.

maybe you're looking for a combination that is difficult to make,
and possibly existing, but very rare
i can only talk about the woman friends i have of course, we do talk, analyse the world, our men, our habits and we are no 'cloths-shopping-tv'-talking women, all of these women would hate a man that isn't able to have an intelligent conversation and most have studied, but ... most of these women don't like flashy cars...

it might be interesting to see
how there are combinations between activities and characters:

interesting conversation linked to: people who have studied, doing a job not for the money but because they are really interested in it, people doing things you are fascinated about, arts

beatiful people linked to : sports, fashion things, expensive environments

cozy people linked to: food, sharing, doing things together, beach

etc

and also make combinations that don't fit
like often people you find in a library you can talk with but maybe you can't take them to a fashion contest
or sportive people may not like bars where everyone is smoking
etc

i know the examples aren't very good, but maybe you understand the basic idea,
that it is not that women don't want an intelligent conversation but you might be attracted to women that don't offer it, but there are plenty of them, it might be a matter of tracking them down, understanding what they look like.

aspies might make conbinations that are very unusual because we don't have these "this does not go with that"-attitude,
personally i think that is a quality, but in life people are often quite stereotypical, or just a little too stereotypical to figure out that you are what you are, namely an interesting guy.
if girls/women see you, they have to see someone they like, and maybe the fashion chit-chat shopping women is more attracted to your image than other, or maybe you are attracted to those kind of woman either because you go in the wrong places, or the elements in your life make that these are the woman that are around (if i hear you describing your friends, all the woman i know would not be interested in talking to guys like that, too smooth, too shiny. electronic music also does it very bad with most of my friends, not all, but most)

i've got the same with finding people who i can work with, very easy to explain when i describe the music i like: i do love listening an opera but also very experimental or even dark heavy electronical music but also circus music and some nice and smooth popmusic, as well as old newwave and punk but never encountered anyone in real life who could even just understand such a taste.
and my clothing is the same, one day i look like this another day i look different,
so classic people are horrified if they see when i'm dressed like a circusgirl and put the electronic music loud, and others are terrified whenever i'm into my operaperiod or they don't understand when they see me dressed like a regular teacher. (or parents freightened when they encounter me otherwise )

don't know whether it contributes anything to your thoughts...

By being raised as "animalistic" I mean being a basic minded individual. With that last sentence, I think you get the gist of what I'm saying overall; that sentence was just more of the same.

I'll take a look at this a bit closer when I'm back in town, I've got like 10 or 15 minutes before I have to get out of here.

Very good point. Its always bothered me though how society, no matter how people really shouldn't sort out into neat little stacks and how bland it is when they do - it almost seems to happen too often. Part of my conflict with this is what you've just said; its a really strange and rare match of those things when I need. For me though I've never had a woman who seemed to really relate to me all the way through and for some reason it takes a lot to even have a relationship cemented in my life - too much, which makes me feel though that I'm failing at some aspect aside from the fact that I myself am a really strange composit of opposites myself and need someone of a somewhat similar caliber.

I know what your saying with this and there's probably a lot of good extra-insight on this matter I could glean from your reply over and above what I've put together. nevertheless my coworker just called me and they'll be picking me up in like 5 minutes - we'll have to pick this back up Friday night.

their stacks are not that neat either ... it's nt-stacks after all, putting in what they like and if it doesn't fit you are the akward one to notice it and ask questions about it
my opinion is that they are not better in socializing they are only not as easy bothered, and certainly not analyzing to improve anything
but anyway-



i don't know what it is that you need of course but maybe you could start with what's most important,

if you'd decide that to be artistic conversation follow photography lessons

if it's intelligent conversation you are after, camp yourself in a library (leave your car for a while and go by bus )

if you want her to be healthy in the first place go to the swimming pool or go jogging in the park

and observe if different environments offer different kind of women, relating differently to you

(maybe i'm coming up with stupid examples but i'm doing my essay, no time to search for the perfect examples. )




you have to show yourself, if you have a special charachter and you dress up as an ordinary man, ordinary woman will look at you, not the special ones, (if that makes sense). sometimes things are decided in a few seconds. i never expect a sensible conversation from a man that walks in businesslike style (however moderate) so i'd look the other way, watching someone with an artistic hat or something. not that i'm so fond of stereotypes (quite the contrary)
if this man would walk to me and ask me a question then i would listen but if he didn't i'd probalby not pay attention (except when he'd move/walk in a nice way or so, or if he'd have an exeptional voice that would capture my attention).
it's true i'm not looking for a man, but i know women who do, have these kind of tentacles and will watch and judge you when you are not looking (and sending you wrong messages as well )


now, one thing that you really have work on is the legibility of large textblocks, cause if you find your special girl and send her an email ... she won't be able to understand that you actually like her!
i would never have noticed that you have some same sort of reasoning than my own if i wouldn't have met you on the musicianthread and discovered it through the rather short pieces of text
even if i'm studying literature it's extremely difficult to grasp your complex thoughts, interesting, but it needs time and i have to read it at least two or three times
(and i'm very sorry not to write very legitible myself )


with all that i don't mean to say you have to hide yourself a maximum, but give this girl a chance to meet you and then you can gradually show her your complexity perhaps?

besides the 'feeling' of failing is very aspie, not the failing itself, people fail all the time, nt's just hide it better. thousands of girls are hooked up with a man they don't want: having children, a house to pay, and other things that makes they'll stay together anyway -don't mean to say that is a bad thing, i just mean to point out that what you see is the outside of the things.
all because they haven't spend a second on the thinking of who this promising man (when they first met) actually is.



Friday's fine, i won't be around either, i really need to go to the university trying to get course notes for the exams (people... yuk )

What is intelligent conversation? I'd assume that all conversations have a specific subject, so for example, if you're up to date with politics and understand those then a woman who isn't interested in politics wouldn't enjoy conversing about that with you. Perhaps she would prefer intelligent conversation about literature or something, instead?

There's a lot of pressure involved if the person you're talking to is smarter than you when it comes to that subject - maybe they feel stupid, maybe they get bored...

It's not a gender thing anyway, really. Lots of men probably lose interest in women who try to hold intelligent conversation. I have noticed that a lot of guys on here seem to think that women are shallow, whereas the women don't hold that kind of opinion about men. I'm not sure whether this isn't so, and I haven't looked around enough to be able to be sure that that is the case, but if it is then I'll set the record straight now: women are, in general, no more shallow than men and no less intellectually inclined. It's all about who you meet and whether you find each other interesting. There's a difference between intelligent and interesting and there's also differences between what kind of intelligence other people are attracted to.

I tend to look at it this way - I'll have less people in my life than the average NT and even fewer romantic interests than that, but they'll probably be of higher quality because they're harder to come across.

Hi Benji! Glad to see you here. You are biased, or haven't looked hard. Frankly, I would lose interest with a woman that DIDN'T try to hold an intelligent conversation. Many guys DON'T think women are shallow. As for the women? Some DO have little regard for men. It would be nice if everyone could look past the gender, and not assume it is an issue.

As for intelligence? If each adds value, etc... WHO CARES? Nobody is going to be as smart as another in everything.

BTW Sorry for invading the womens discussion. I was searching for something else.

Steve

You've missed my point Steve. I'm not bias at all - far from it. I'm just pointing out that from what I've seen (which as I did also point out isn't extensive - I don't have the time and haven't been here long enough to trawl through every post every made in the women's and men's discussion) a lot of talk does seem to focus on questioning women (NT and aspie) and much less so on questioning men.

Yeah, some women do have little regard for men, but as I said, there are just as many men who have little regard for women.

I also wondered why the women's discussion is readable without signing in, yet the men's discussion is hidden. Is there any specific reason for that?

Ok, well, the good news is this place has a business center with a desk in a quiet corner where the monitor faces the wall rather than a window. So in otherwords I think I can still do this.

see, that's what I mean though - people are geared toward pretense, ie. if you are this type of person or that person you dress this or that sort of way, look this or that way, hang out at this place, drink that kind of soda or coffee, vote for x party in politics, and deviations from that just seem to monkey wrench things. I'll try to keep this thread on topic more and as such try to avoid talking about me so much. Still, it just sucks how people really are stuck in that much of a concrete way of being and what I need to find as far as I know are the people who are more abstract themselves- ie. blend the best of every world they feel they fit in without specifically wearing the parts of the trappings or the act that they just aren't feeling or think is silly to walk through just to have something define them. Being that I'm looking for abstract people there kinda is no real environment for those sorts of women, if anything I see them sporatically and that's about it. Still good advice for people in general, I don't deny that part.




I get that and actually wearing Akademiks, Re:verb, Ecko, Rocawear, Phatfarm, and playing sort of the stoner/raver edge of adult dress is what I do to find people like myself (ie. into what I'm into but still conservative and analytical to a point, well-balanced but definitely identifying more with the harder crowd) - it tends to work well enough to a point. Still, its a rare subtype.




Not worried on that one, I'm really not comfortable with trying to meet people online like that, I prefer IRL just because they get to process how f'd up my nonverbals are first and if they make it passed that they're at least a good ways closer to keepers. Internet, its a complete gamble and a bit of a gut-stabber to be with someone whose trying to be pleasant but seeing it all over their body language that they aren't getting what they thought they would.




All of that comes down to one thing - this world is random, really random, but at the same time things seem to shake out a certain way almost too consistently. Is the person who actually holds back and makes sure they make the right choices always the one left out? I don't think so but then again when you combine AS's wonderful nonverbal effects and extremely rare personality types then I guess it really explains itself without people really needing to have the sort of nature I layed out in the first post (though I've seen it in other people's lives for sure).

Actually intellectual babble about politics, great authors, poetry, and all that stuff traditionally thought of as such usually just seems like complete self-serving posture acting - unless the conversation authentically started from a comment somoene made, bringing it up for the sake of bringing it up isn't something I'm keen on though. I guess intelligent conversation is really intelligent people having an intelligent way of seeing things, viewing things, and interacting - the subject doesn't matter and the hostility tends to be the same when you have people mismatched on levels because you could talk about the most mundane or basic subject and people can just sense eachother's trajectories.



Which is why the thought of posing as smart IRL or pontificating about some subject that people would consider intellectually lofty just makes me sick to my stomache - its not me, that kind of behavior is of a crowd that in my honest opinion may have high IQ's but almost no wisdom on life, and I'd much rather practice a world-wise and street-smart edge and presentation of my intelligence (especially since it suites my purposes and friendships as well as what sorts of behaviors I like and respect in general to a much greater degree).



I think there's a lot of antipathy between the sexes and as much as either side wants to deny it we're still human and still eugenically geared at the bottom end of things (led by instinct which governs who our nerve impulses of attraction will even let us like - its not in our conscious control really). Thats why I don't personally beef with women for being one way or another, just that I do look for honest answers and since it is very hard for people to face down the aspects of themselves which go against their conscious morals and everything they think they stand for its also very hard to get a real answer out of people (and just as often hard to tell who's giving a real answer with the usual sorts of advice vs. who's telling you what they really wish was true of themselves - no worries though and I forgive anyone who does fool themselves in the process of this thread).



That's good, my close friends in life - while they do count relatively high by NT standards our relationships are of a much better caliber than whan I see between most people because the lying, backstabbing, fighting, and BS isn't there. My friends are guys I can go out to a bar and partry with, drink myself under the table with, smoke or trip with if I want to, we can sit there and chill and talk about anything - and while a lot of em are fighters much more than I am they're the types of people who judge another individual in a much more substance-over-form sort of way (the types of friends we tend to make while the petty f's run off because we don't look like anyone they'd want to be within 10 feet of). As far as having an intimite relationship though, my overall fears are that its not nearly as merit based (and I hear it from both sides - believe it too, no one no matter how good of a person they are deserves s--- when it comes to the relationship world, you need to take your hat off and just bow to random chance, and when it continues to give somoene the slip they almost have to accept at the same time that the gene pool is saying something pretty damn negative about them and as we all know the gene pool is the most biggoted nazi racist force in existence; sadly it controls all of us and controls those the most who can't see it).

Heh, hope that didn't take a heavy twist but I think you see my meaning: if you see your strategy in life failing and doing the same thing every day makes you ill you tend to want to bust out of the rut your stuck in. For me that's really wanting to know more about the bottom line and busting out of that rut could be either learning something more about the personality traits within myself that I really need to rake up and further develope or alternatively if its something that's really beyond my means reasons why I should keep doing what I'm doing and even try harder to kill off any emotions linked to those sorts of needs.

Here's how I'd settle that one - men shallow? Women shallow? Nah, and we're both sitting here (collectively as sexes) and spouting off who we are as aspies rather than taking the viewpoint that we're all from an NT world and when we say 'people','guys','girls' in general its like we're trying to pierce the illogic of the common viewpoint or what the general rule seems to portray. Sad fact is most people are kinda simple and kinda basic - doesn't make me feel superior to say that, in fact its pretty damn lonely and it makes you seeth that much more over how messed up our world is and how we really completely trash and ruin the quality of eachothers lives when it takes so many people up until their 50's, later, or even never to be what you'd like to think of as real adults rather than just chronologically there.

I see what you mean here. I tend to be a 'victim' of people attempting to discuss music with me. I never care to discuss music because for the most part I don't care about anything but the music, do I don't need to know who from what band did what or care to talk about the bands I like. But there is only a couple of people I know who can have conversations about random things that turn into really interesting conversations, even though they're not pointed towards being intelligent?

Those conversations are really hard to have with anyone you don't know very well though, probably because a lot of the time the best conversations are inspired by something quite simple or different to what you'd think about if you were actually trying to think about something? You know like how you could talk about ghosts to one person and be discussing the possibilities and the conversation could be interesting, but then if the same conversation came up with someone else they'd deny all possibility of there being such things as ghosts and the conversation wouldn't get anywhere?

Perhaps that's not strictly what you mean, but I can't think of any examples of having had someone discuss things with me in an intelligent way with it not just involving someone attempting to talk at me about something in a fairly pretentious manner other than the kind similar to what I've described.


Do you think people ever find you boring? I only ask because the way I'm reading this and relating to it could be completely wrong, but I always think that people must think I'm boring or I have no opinions for not wishing to engage in subjets that don't interest me or that so seem a little loaded (a lot of conversations with specific intellectual subjects are quite intimidating because it's almost like a competition and as my stance a lot of the time is to live and let live and to agree to disagree I find them hard work - I'd rather talk about something that teaches me something instead of argue a point that's not ultimately worth arguing).

It would only be a few people who think I'm really interesting based on conversations we've had, because as I've said, those inspired conversations hardly ever (well, never for me, I don't think) happen with someone you don't know very well.

Before this I'd never thought much of it - just that it's really awesome when you do have them with someone you enjoy conversing with. But now that it's come up like this it does seem quite a shame that it doesn't happen more often.


I'm not sure if this means my post was read as being very defensive of women, but it wasn't. It was meant to be completely unbias (both men and women share a lot of the same qualities, it just so happens that because of the typical romantic model being one male and one female we tend to be victims of the opposite sex more often than the same sex in that way). The question of the thread stumped me somewhat, really. I don't know the answer (other than the previous speculations, as it is that kind of conversation that I would assume poses most problems). And as it's not only women who might shy away from intelligent conversation, and not all women that need the attention to be on themselves (although the general trend does seem to be women like to dress themselves up for men and men like to lick women's a**** to get in their favour, judging by acquaintances) so as a woman who actually would prefer to talk to someone as a friend and have proper conversation instead of having someone talking about me and how wonderful I am (frankly it makes me uncomfortable, I'm not good at taking compliments and I like to be able to respect the people I mix with, instead of being put in a position where I can't respect them) I can't really answer now I have a better idea (I think) of what you were talking about in the first place.

I actually know someone who commentates their own actions to make sure everyone sees what they did. I am quite a fool in some respects and I allowed myself to be used by that person many times, and often didn't realise just how fake she was. Then little things started to add up (I'd remember things she'd said that later were contradicted, etc.) and I realised that she was completely fake. She once admitted to me she'd 'stolen' one of my mannerisms because she thought it was cute, and would often adopt phrases or words I use. I spent a lot of time around her, both before and after it finally hit me that she was playing a big game... yet I still don't know why she plays it or how she manages to keep it up 24/7.

I won't lie - there have of course been times in my own life where I've wanted to justify my own actions and have even probably convinced myself that as I'm a good person I can't possibly have meant to hurt anyone when I acted out of order. But then I did reach a point where I thought everything was my fault and I was actually a really bad person and when I got over that I realised that all I can do is try to be a good person. I've believed that I'm not intelligent because I dislike talking about 'grown up' things like politics, and because I can't discuss music because I am only interested in it to listen to. And eventually I realised that I am just me, and that no one's perfect, and that despite the negative qualities I have I'd still take those over some negative qualities others have (although I'm sure a lot of other people are much happier to be themselves than me, haha).


My fears with relationships is that so far I've known guys who end up wanting a girl who is a little more like a girl (and consistently, instead of just having moments) or the guy is one who likes androgyny but who has tastes I don't find attractive. The guys who show interest in me I usually have no interest in, and the guys I am interested in have no interest in me, or there's a mutual interest that turns out to not actually work out so well. I am only nineteen though, so there is plenty of time for all of that, and I'm happy not to have any romantic attachments, but when the one guy who I really clicked with was back when I was fifteen it does worry me that perhaps now everyone is too mature to go for personality - everyone has developed preferences and if you don't match that then your only hope is to have someone fall in love with your personality. In which case you then have to like them as well, and you have to spend enough time together for that to happen.


I think I need a strategy.

I often wish I could learn some lessons to help teach me about what I want and need and how to get there. I don't even know what lessons I need to learn. If you get any closer then feel free to give me some tips.

funny, it makes me think of all the little sheets of papers i find whenever i'm re-oganizing some drawers or so, for years i was so clueless about so many things and so i find all these questions i've ever written, questions and instructions for non-existing readers. like i was waiting for someone being able to answer them, some kind of mysterious guide that could clarify my weird relation with the world (which i now understand as AS)
since i didn't know what was going on(only discovered AS this summer and am twice your age) i found some personal solutions to things like 'a set of rules' for communication, 'a friend per topic' to avoid friendship trouble, 'just say nothing and do some cleaning or other organising non-disturbing things' in case of confusion, 'no expectations towards anything ever' cause i can't deal with it, 'allowing my visual personality to remain strictly visual', 'do sports to make my blood circulate', etc.
but still, wouldn't it be just wonderful if live had its (applicable, so not just a worthless one) manual...
being at loss and extremely concious of your own situation is not an easy thing i think.

(of topic: if you'd ever feel like talking about ghosts, i've some very personal experiences, but in a non classic way, rather rational stuff, no dreamy new-age things, although i 'closed' the subject for a while, i may be interested to reopen the conversation with someone analytical as you appear to be)

Yeah, conversations like that are random. In my own life I realize that while I used to need to banter on about philosophy, religion, politics, possibilities of life outside this earth or after this earth - it wore thin and probably because having the same conversation over and over and finding the same ends just took the steam out of my desire to really do it. I mean I like hearing about things I hadn't known of, particularly if they're in my own line of thought or are right on target with the kinds of things I'd really like to know, but those come along rarer and rarer these days. Overall, and back to the paragraphs Alyssa needed explained too, it just seems though that a lot of people are phobic about having good or direct and insightful conversation and while yeah, I get grossed out if people are too unbridledly enthusiastic or "Wow! That's so cool!" I do at least like being able to chat with someone about these kinds of things, have a good mellow talk on it, anytime for the most part where its appropriate, and they wouldn't shy down from it.



It really depends. Back when I was in the food industry I used to have a lot of people who thought I was boring, didn't party, etc. at work but its just because I didn't joke around a lot, partly because I didn't have the energy (overwhelmed by all the people and things I needed to do) but they also didn't have my same sense of humor so I never got staged for good jokes and people usually just got confused or thought I was zoning out when I said something sarcastic just because they wouldn't know it was in my character (somehow they also seemed to never pay attention when I was talking to the people who did get me). After going out and having them see how I pound down drinks, play beerpong, and things like that they realize I'm not boring. Here's how it is though - if someone's the kind of extrovert who needs entertainment spoonfed to them and has to constantly be verbally reacting to their environment, starting something, or punking their friends, I tend not to gel with them as well if its the only side that they have to themselves (which is kinda what I ran into with the food industry a lot) - I have friends who have the former aspects but they also have that depth on the other side of it to where they can relate to an introvert or are introverts to a point fighting to keep themselves out there. Whether or not I'm really boring though, I hate to say it, has a lot to do with time and place and if I feel like I have the energy or desire to go out and drink, hit up a house party, etc. - new people I can be very talkative with.

It would only be a few people who think I'm really interesting based on conversations we've had, because as I've said, those inspired conversations hardly ever (well, never for me, I don't think) happen with someone you don't know very well.

Before this I'd never thought much of it - just that it's really awesome when you do have them with someone you enjoy conversing with. But now that it's come up like this it does seem quite a shame that it doesn't happen more often.



Nah, wasn't taking it that way rather than just giving my own take on those observations. Another thing that just came to mind with what you said - not only is it that the stresses with the opposit sex tend to stick out but if you are that kind of person who's intelligent and has it together think about the members of the same sex you'll roll with as friends - ie. that's one of the reasons why I think we have a tendency to have a sugarcoated view of our own respective genders.



Heh, the commentating sounds pretty pathetic, that's a great way to turn people off, but I can understand borrowing mannerisms - I do it to a point myself when I see an expressive set another guy is using that think is worth picking up on. I guess utilizing that stuff is just about learning to better express yourself and have yourself look the way you want to look. As for your friend, I don't know if that was really her bottom line of it - she sounds a little loopy - but I think most people do a version of that and even a great amount of aspies just that I doubt they really feel the need to talk about it like its some variety of intellectual property their taking.



I think I'm at the point now where I've realized that while I'm a good person in theory the problem is that so much of it really is how other people percieve you, then there's the problem that you want to be slightly bad or hardened at least to an extent because you want to be 'cool' rather than 'nice' (its not a 'nice guy' thing either, I can't think of too many women who I'd imagine appreciating that label). That and once you factor in politics, the complete different wiring sets people seem to have in viewing the world - I think the only standard you can really go by is what you think of yourself because no matter what your doing you can find one person or at least a few people who'd have something to say about what they feel is the morality of it or how they'd judge you even when they're take on your intentions may be way out in left field and rather pathetically prejudged. On politics I think my parents did that to me, they're always watching the news or reading the paper so their knowledge on that stuff is pretty in-depth (though I really got tired of debating politics just because even if you want to keep it a fact to fact exchange most people try to run you over with emotion or blanket statements and after a while when you don't even want to put in the work of having all the facts together anymore because that seems to have no effect either - people just conceed points and go on to the next thing).



Hehehe, isn't it weird how mutual interest ends up being a trainwreck too? The hard part is the fact that you both start microanalysing eachother, reacting to the subtlest cues, getting too tense, and its almost like you need somoene there to just sit there and crack on you both for being nerds and just throw shots and mixed drinks at you until you've had enough laughs that that part's over and done with. That and the seriousness that comes about also works to kill that attraction from both sides. I guess next time I do have that sort of thing happen again I'll really have to hope that Jack Daniels and Johnny Walker can be my wing-men and that Alize and Hypnotiq can be her back-up posse.

aren't we good in finding computers available?
i'm at a student's (i think i can say friend's) house in a studyroom now, it would be nice if wrongplanet had some less eyecatching lay-out (although i have hardly anything to fear from frenchspeaking people, it's very rare if they understand english) i do not mind if people would find out about my AS, but i'd rather not share my open thoughts about nt's or how i manage to survive the world my way.



yeah, well, i guess i've done the same thing analyzing, questioning myself, adjusting, wondering, etc and when you finally meet this guy (in my case) in fact you haven't done anything at all, he just graps your hand, you are situated in his bed before you realize it (that's where i probably am animalistic, it's stronger than myself i guess) and after that you notice what he is like and what qualities he's got and how he is convinsing you so many days/weeks/months/years one after another that in the end you know you have a relationship ... the funny thing is that he might be very intelligent (i'd even say extremly) but we never agree, we have a very different system of seeing things and the talking is surely not what makes our relation survive.



i have to trust you on that, clothes don't have names in my life




i really haven't got any idea about that, internet wasn't a part of our lives fifteen years ago




i haven't sorted out that one yet, sometimes i'm ready to say you're right about it, it's suspicious how certain things are sorted out, but other times i feel like, nah, there is no real 'they': you have some people put together and there is some likeniness that it will combine in a certain way, but you can just as well move yourself into some position that counterbalances the predictable endresult (not necessarily in a verbal way). people are searching for solutions all the time and if you can give them what they need they are almost always happy with it.
however, you have to be aware of people who love to put you in a negative spotlight, often because they are not very good at coming up with interesting things themselves. and the more powerfull these people are the more perilious (hm, hope it's the correct word here, no dictionary, or not in my language, my friend is scandinavian) the situation gets. for me, avoiding contact with these people is a rule, cause they can position you and then you're stuck. (just talking experience here)

as for the abstract woman, the one you'll look in her eyes and you'll know it's her... i recommend the movie "black cat white cat" from emir kusturica