Where do I belong and who's gonna want me?

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First off, if this thread is overwhelmingly deemed to be in the wrong place, I accept it being trashed... as in tossed... not flamed

This is a very serious issue for me and I truly do not know how to word it let alone who to ask about it.

Some of you may know that I fall under the label of being transgendered since I've mentioned it several times before on WP.
Some of you may also know that I am a genetic male.
I was married for 14 1/2 yrs (together for 17), but one of the reasons my former wife gave for moving forward with the divorce was - as she stated - "I didn't marry a woman!".

Now, I do not have plans to transition to the point of living my life 'as a woman'.
I don't particularly hate my body, my face, my voice... but I can say that without a doubt... as long as I have been conscious of human genitalia... I have wanted to exchange my boy bits for girl bits.

So, to move on... here I am, 47 years old, and alone.
I would like to have a relationship... intimate in all aspects... with a woman.
I just don't see this ever happening.
I don't want to have sexual encounters just for the fun of it... I want a relationship.
If I were to ever have a vaginoplasty (the 'sex change' surgery below for Male to Female transitioners), that's as far as I want to go. I'm not into raising my voice, wearing makeup and frilly things and swishing my way through life like so many crossdressers and TS's.
I just want this change so I can finally feel comfortable with my own body.

Hmmm, so this is getting too wordy by now I'm sure...

I consider myself to be an inbetweener as far as gender goes.
There are things I appreciate about my male self, and things I appreciate about my female self.
I want one change to my body (I understand all about the medical issues post-op such as needing some form of hormone replacement therapy), but I cannot imagine anyone wanting to enter into a relationship with me if that were to happen.

I also like wearing some female clothing... pretty much just the female version of what I have always worn.. jeans, skirts, etc.
Pretty plain stuff... again.. I am not into the whole drag-queen sort of thing.

So I don't know who can or will answer this... someone who's bi? lesbian? straight?

Based upon your feelings, your life experiences, the people you know... do I have a snowball's chance in hell of ever having a meaningful, intimate relationship with a woman ever again?

I'm not looking for compliments or emotional support... just wondering if I am such a freak because of this that the only people who would be interested in me are those looking to score some time with a freak?

I don't want to be used and I don't want to use anyone.

Just curious.
Thanks for any replies.

I asked this here because I don't think I'm going to get any credible answers from guys since this isn't about me seeking relationships with men.

I take most questions seriously & try to treat folks with respect & courtesy-otherwise I just don't reply at all.

Can't specifically address that because I personally know so few other people (and my friends have been male more often than female).

Your concerns sound reasonable & what you say makes sense to me. Hope that doesn't sound inordinantly supportive or complimentary-I mean it intellectually.

My answer is paradoxical, and I'd say the same regardless of what your particular mind/body circumstances are. It's easier to find someone (for any two people to locate each other) based on extremes, yet I believe that more people inhabit the moderate areas between those poles. How to explain what I mean by this ? Ummm...
Seems easier to put out a call for potential companions (or to describe oneself as) some intense absolute way-even though most people usually embody moderate traits, behaviors, preferences, etc. Qualifiers & disclaimers are harder to negotiate with, just in terms of needing extra words to communicate one's situation (and desired relationships).
Thing is, people often get into relationship based on what they like (and find interesting in a good way) about each other, without intending to be with someone who has whichever charcteristics (that could be considered "challenging" or not immediately desirable-ack, I'm trying not to sound rude !). If one compares oneself to people with all manner of differences, those may not be the things that draw two people together, they just happen to exist in one or both people. Am unsure how one would get around this conundrum, sorry this seems muddled.

wsmac, youve always been so kindhearted and thoughtful in your posts, so that's why read this one.

One thing I've noticed about males is that they aren't as concerned about not being perfect looking as women. Women always hate their body. I think it's not so much that women want to be beautiful. It's that they feel bad about the flaws because so many say such nasty things, too often, about every part of a woman that isn't perfect so it's impossible. I've heard idiots insult Hillary because her thighs aren't good enough. Shallow idiots but there are a lot of them and it hurts, especially when women I trying to figure out who they are, what they are, where they belong.

My first thought about you changing over was that you'd have a male attitude and actually like your new famale body as imperfect as it is. That' would be a novelty. My second thought is that women would probably more accepting of a relationship with an ambiguous gender than a man would.

I like to ask people if they'd still be in love with their significant other if he or she were to change sexes. More women say yes about that than men.

A long time ago when feminism was gaining ground and everyone was supposed to believe that only nurture made men and women have different minds and that it had nothing to do with nature, I was pretty intolorant of a transgendered person who was friends with my room mate. I refused to refer to him as she. I thought that if we are all the same, except for our sex parts, then he should be able to be who ever he is without having to be so drastic. Now I'm sorry that I wasn't nicer to him/her. He was hurting with his identity and I was hurting with my unrelenting anxiety and hyper- awareness.

Nowadays, I think people are more accepting of "gender freedom." If it's not fully accepted yet, then we just need to work harder to make it accepted. It's more about that conformity thing that needs to be challenged at every turn.

First...you're not a freak so cut it out.

A relationship should be based on what's inside not what's outside.

I'm not bi, lesbian or have any gender issues that I know of anyways...but I don't believe those things are "choices" we make anyways...it's how we are wired from birth, and if someone cares enough about you they shouldn't have a problem respecting your choices...because it's YOUR life and your body.

Be honest, be yourself...I think you've got more than a snowballs chance.

Just curious since you say you're not interested in a relationship with a man.....
Is is that you would rather have female genetilia, or is it the apparent lack of visible genetalia you find appealing?
With guys, it's right there. In women, it's hidden, not obvious.
I only ask since you don't seem to actually want to be female, just envious in a way.

No offense if I'm way off base, but I've read about guys who just hate their genitals. Not wanting female ones instead, just don't want thiers. So they have them removed. They say they want to be smooth.


I see nothing wrong with wearing whatever gender clothing you find comfortable. Women wear men's clothes all the time and it's accepted. Jeans, there's not much difference anyway. Skirts, well you could always wear plaid and call it a kilt.


As far as relationships go, I'd say you still have as much chance as anyone, but you might need to be looking in non-mainstream places. Sorry I can't recomend, maybe someone else can.

Thank you all for your comments.
I have gotten something from every one of them.

Just to be clear... I am not so sensitive about this issue that I cannot take a joke, or accept someone's comment if it was not meant to be hurtful. Ignorance is something we all have about many things, and on this issue I don't expect a lot of folks to have a broad base of knowledge to work with nor experience. There are quite a lot of men and women who continue to hide out of fear and so there's no way to really appreciate gender variance in our society yet.

I also want to be clear about my former wife and her position on this.
For the majority of our years together, she saw me as a particular person.
One day I brought up this gender issue and her whole idea of who I am/was collapsed.
I do not fault her for her feelings, she hasn't been spiteful directly about this issue.. really... and I'm sure it has caused her considerable emotional anguish.

Perhaps what you say about women being more accepting of gender variance is true. My only experience has been letting my 'secret' out after I have started a relationship, so I have nothing to go on besides that.
Also, I tried to 'quit' it all my whole life and my self-image has been pretty rotten partly because of that (that and the ADD/HD).
The last couple of years have been pretty tumultuous for me, yet I have learned more about myself in that span of time than all the previous years of my life. So... I'm doing much better than I had been.

You have said the very thing I have said before... about 'being smooth'.. I find that remarkable and quite interesting.
I always figured I made that up. I find it intriquing that other folks may have felt the same way.

Hopefully, without being too gross for folks, I can explain my particular feelings about my genetalia.

Other than being part of bringing in a beautiful, wonderful human being... our daughter... I have no other use for my male parts down there.
I have always found them to be in my way, the unwanted erections that men get (often in the morning) bother me, I do not enjoy sex in the male role... I have always tended to feel like I was assaulting the woman, no matter how pleased she may have said she was with my role.
I prefer touching, kissing, stroking, etc.
I don't have some sort of burning hatred of my penis and scrotum, I have just always wished I was built differently. I feel like I should have been built differently... as in having a vagina instead.
I imagine it to be much more practical, much more aesthetically pleasing, etc.

I say I do not want to be a woman.
There are different things I mean by that.
First, I was born a genetic male (not knowing anything about my personal DNA other than what my appearance suggests) and I find it difficult to assume that because of a surgery or surgeries, and hormones, I could 'become' a woman.
Even having the vaginoplasty would only mean that I would have rebuilt genetalia... not a functioning vagina like genetic woman have.
The form would be there, but not all the other parts internally.

I can imagine that if I had learned there were other people like me and that surgery and hormones were an option (I did grow up knowing about Dr. Rene Richards... as one rare example) for me, I would have persued that earlier on in my life.
At this point however, I believe I would be satisfied with having the bottom surgery, and trying female hormones to see if they fit my mind and body right.
I just don't see any reason to create a new person all-together though.
I do not see the necessity of changing my name to a fem name, adopting the mannerisms of a female, trying to change my voice pitch and speech to sound more like a female, etc.

I do want something that works... down below. I do not desire to be a eunuch.
Hopefully with my surgery, I would be able to retain sexual pleasure from stimulation in that area.
The surgeries have been getting MUCH better in regards to this.

As things go today... I am a weird item. The medical society stands behind the Benjamin Standards which dictate who gets surgery and who does not.
As I am today, there probably is no surgeon who would grant me the surgery I feel I need and desire.
We just haven't gotten to that understanding about gender yet.
Everything in the medical world as well as most of society, sees gender in a bi-polar state... male or female.

I do talk with a woman about all this... she could be one of the psych doc's who write the letter a surgeon wants to see before doing the surgery.
She has asked me if I imagine I could live with just being the way I am now.

I can say that I will always live with this feeling and it has been a constant in my life.
Everyday I stay the same, is another day I know that I am not completely who I should be.

No matter if this happened in the womb, or from being dropped as a kid, or fed the wrong foods, or molested or whatever, it is real to me.
I honestly believe that it would be the best thing for me to get the surgery and continue to live my life as I enjoy it.


EEEEK! I'm on a bit of a soapbox here huh?

Sorry.

I await to see any other comments or questions any of you may have.

Thank you again for your input so far!

Just to further simplify my understanding of how you feel, and what you want:

It sounds like you are a lesbian stuck in a mans body.

Am I accurate, or am I missing something?

Without a better way to express in our language.... that's what makes sense to most folks I try to explain it to.

Without going into another long-winded post...

When younger, had I known about the surgery/hormones, I would have gone for it and lived my life as a lesbian tomboy as best I can figure.

Having led the life I have for 40+ years, I find I could compromise and live between the two commonly held genders.

My sexual preference is for women.
I wrestled with whether or not I was gay for many years because back then the only options I knew of for a guy who felt female was that of being a crossdresser or homosexual.

Today, I know better than that. I am not a crossdresser and I do not consider myself a gay man.
I do not believe I would change my sexual preference even if I had surgery.
This sort of thing is being looked at more and more as our knowledge of gender expands.

There are those transwoman (male to female transitioners) who do desire to be as completely female as possible in all aspects of their lives and their sexual preference is for men.
There are many profiles online which meet this pattern.

I know a small group of trans folk in my area ranging from M to F, F to M and those of us in between and one person (MtoF) was married before and remains married even after her surgery.

Unfortunately I think you're right about that. I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that that's the last procedure you can get done, and you have to take hormones and live as a woman for X amount of time first to qualify.

But that's in the US, other countries may be different.

I think there is no reason to give up hope. There could well be a woman out there who will love you for who you are. After all, sexual orientation is a spectrum. Not everyone is entirely gay or entirely straight. Plenty of people are somewhere in the middle, or don't really fit the scheme of classification at all.

Finding a "soul mate" who will understand you and respect you is a challenge no matter who you are. I mean, is anyone really normal? Some people have an easier time finding opportunities for sex and casual dating than others, but finding the right partner for a long-term relationship is always hard. And yet it happens all the time. If you keep an open mind, anything could be possible.

Would you consider a relationship with another trans person? Either a trans person or a bi/lesbian are probably your best bets for someone who would find your mix of traits appealing.

Will you be succesful: i personally know of someone who is in the process of going through MTF surgery and is in a relationship with a male. I know of even more if you allow me to count online counterparts.

I'm in a relationship with a female who is a man and has no intention of having MTF surgery. In fact he feels there is no point as sometimes he does feel like a man. We might have to break up soon but thats because I'm going to have to move in order to make enough money to survive and not because it isn't a wonderful relationship - it is.

As to where you belong. You belong with the rest of us transgendered/androgrynous in mind/etc people. why not check out whatisgender.net. Its a fairly recent offshoot of another website where the owner began dictating who can and can not be transgendered, using her own definitions, but its quickly growing.

HaHa, for a moment there I thought you were asking me out! ... then I read the rest of your post.

Thanks for the idea though!
I have thought of it.

TT, thanks.


I suppose I'm feeling like if things weren't hard enough when playing the part of the 'Red-Blooded American Male' and looking for a mate, with this added aspect to my person, the odds feel like they are REALLY stacked against me.

There is someone I'm in contact with and we're gonna do the pm/email thing and learn more about each other.
We'll see where it goes from there.
I think she lives all the way across the country though, so distance will slow things down a bit.

I can assure you all this... anyone who starts getting close to me will definitely know sooner than later about me.
So far all the people I have told this to have not run away screaming or started thumping me on the head as I always imagined.
And yes, most of them have been women.

But, none of these people are possible romantic suitors... male or female

I really do appreciate the fact that you all didn't chase me out of here and have taken this thread seriously (not that I mind jokes amongst all the seriousness).

I also appreciate the time you have taken to answer my thread.

THANK YOU ALL!

One thing I can say about myself is that I always keep hope.
No matter what I've been through in my life, I feel like I have no choice but to keep on looking ahead and trying to make my situation better. I have hope of figuring this all out someday

*hugs*

Ooh, you're up late young lady!

Thank you!

The more unusual you are, the smaller your chances of compatability. I mean it's a small pond you're in, the 'unusual' pond. I think that's why society fosters conformity, maybe it gives people more scope.