AS as a Crutch?

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Aspergers is not an impairment. It is a difference. Social interaction is not as important to an Aspie as it is to an NT. That doesn't make it an impairment.

The trouble is - right now we are labelled as impaired by law. Even if we fall through some loopholes BECAUSE of the LACK of obvious impairment (such as physical issues).

And yet you'll note that I haven't accused you of being ignorant of aspies, whereas you clearly accused me of such.

You've yet to inform me how my experience is inadequate.



A difference, simply by its very definition, is abnormal. The majority defines what is normal because the majority is the most common; you cannot say it is normal for the grocery stores to solely sell peaches and chicken nuggets when most grocery stores sell far more than that; there may be a few that only sell those, but they are not the majority; they are abnormal (and their lack of supply would most likely impair them from selling as much as other stores, because most people eat more than peaches and chicken nuggets).

The world being flat still has nothing to do with this. It was not a fact, but the difference between socialization is a fact. You can deny all you want, but that won't make it false; when you deny that there is a difference (and thus, one is abnormal) between NTs and those on the spectrum, you are denying that there is a reason for the spectrum. It is not BS.



They are not telling us what to do. No where does it state that if you are impaired, you must immediately change your ways. You can continue living like you always have.



I feel like I'm communicating with a child. We. Are. Impaired. Our differences in communication are abnormal compared to the majority of society, and that impairs us. We are going to be isolated whether or not you give it a name, because of the way we act; people, no matter how well intentioned, are not going to be able to tell that we don't mean to offend others. You cannot continuously blame all of your problems on the NTs; take responsibility for yourself.



It's everyone's fault. You're being just as intolerant of them as they are being of you.



Intolerance will never go away; you are preaching intolerance now. You are denying facts to make yourself feel better, and that's getting no one anywhere.



How does your point have anything to do at all about whether or not aspies are socially impaired?

If you choose to be angry every single time someone holds an intolerant view, you'll be angry your entire life, so angry that it will cripple any and all potential you hold. There are always going to be people in the world, no matter what you do, that are going to be intolerant. They may not be intolerant over social communications, but they're going to be intolerant of something. Wasting your emotions on them is futile.



You are over-exaggerating what you view as intolerance time and time again.

I'm labeled as socially impaired due to a different disorder. I have a job, I have an education, I have a life. It didn't kill me, hasn't killed me, won't kill me. The only one ruining your life is you. You became so overly emotional at the thought of being "impaired" that you were willing to throw away your funds to have it removed. No one said that you have to be perfectly fine to function in society; it may be an abnormal functioning, which is technically impaired, but it's functioning just the same. There's no reason you cannot go in and sell yourself if you really, really, and really want a job that you're capable and suited for. Go in and tell them that yes, you are socially impaired, but that doesn't stop you from getting work done; explain to them that you are capable of doing social things, it justs means that you do them differently (which is abnormal); regale them with your successes, achievements, and skills. Don't conduct yourself like a bitter person who can't stand being different; conduct yourself like a professional who is confident that he can do it. If you really try, and apply for a lot of jobs, even if it's maybe not the one you would love to have, you're bound to be at least considered.

Of course we live in a diverse world, and I didn't say we had to act exactly like them, nor is it required to do such. What I said is that in many ways it's easier to adapt to them; by learning some of the things that turn them off, we can make a better impression if need be. It doesn't change the fact that we are different though, and by being different, impaired.



You believe having an abnormal way of functioning, a way of being different, is to be inferior? Your problem is not the label, your problem is your attitude towards it. Of course we're equal to NTs; everyone is equal. So explain it to them; tell them what it affects and how, don't just sulk and think they should automatically know. You're still different though, still impaired; that's just how it is, whether you like it or not. I can say that I naturally have pink eyes, but that doesn't mean that I do or that I ever will; it's a fact. You can still achieve with the labels, you just have to try harder, which you seem opposed to doing.



The same is true for any culture; in some cultures, our revealing dress would be considered inappropriate. She can still function in the same social manner, however, if she is given the opportunity, much like said people with revealing clothes can function in the same social manner is given the chance in other societies. There are certain things that carry throughout the human race, and the ability to read into social cues is one of them; the cues may be different from culture to culture, but overall, they still exist. Someone who can read cues in one culture can eventually learn them in another. However, someone who is born without the ability to read or understand those cues isn't going to learn them; they cannot function normally in a social setting no matter where it is. The woman can if she has the opportunity; the aspie can't, regardless of the opportunity. Hence, there is a difference between the situations, and it is not relevant at all.



And those difficulties create feelings within you that you obviously cannot lose long enough to be objective. You may look on both sides, but you don't look at them with the same understanding; you are inclined to believe "your" side, and that's what you do; your opinion is subjective. There's no where that says you have to be dxed if you suspect that you're an aspie; at the age you did it, you cannot blame it on your parents, and you need to take responsibility for the fact that you went in there fully aware that you may not like what they told you; they are experts on it, whereas you are not. You are socially impaired because of your abnormal functioning in a social situation, like the rest of the people of the autism spectrum; that is part of the spectrum, and that's how it is. Your potential is only decreased if you allow it to be; if you don't want to work and be strong enough to convince people that you're capable of doing what you want, that's your fault. There are plenty of people with the same label that have achieved in this world.



I am socially impaired. I cannot function in the same manner as the majority does because I cannot understand them, nor can I give off the signals that they understand knowingly or not. That is a difference, which is abnormal, which is an impairment in the social world. Whether I choose to have pride for it or not is my own decision; it's a subjective choice. (For the record, as I'm sure you'll bring this up, no, I don't wish to be normal. I'm perfectly content where I am, and I'm sure I wouldn't be near as happy if I was like the majority. I am, however, socially impaired; I accept that, and that's fine with me.)



It is not intolerance because they're not aware of why I'm different. All they know is what's natural to them; they see the same signals day after day after day amongst people who operate like they do, and I give off all the signals of being unwilling to communicate with them and ignoring them. They are making assumptions based off of what they have learned from other people. If they were well informed on the matter - which I don't choose to go around telling everyone I meet - perhaps they would see it differently. However, I don't expect them to know such, because they don't need to know such in relation to me. There is normal in some contexts; there are certain social aspects that are shared throughout the majority, and that is normal. It is no one's fault.

The berka has nothing to do with this still. People have knowledge of why she wears that, whereas they don't have the knowledge of why we communicate differently. If they choose to isolate her, it's a conscious decision based on her dress with the full realization that she may be perfectly "normal" in social contexts; if they choose to isolate us, it's a decision based on our behavior, which, as far as they are aware, shows that we are not interested; as far as they know, we really aren't interested. Why should they continue to pester someone who, as far as they know, doesn't want to talk to them? Honestly, it's foolish to expect everyone going around asking people who don't seem interested in talking, "Are you of the autism spectrum?"



No, it's not what I'm doing to you. I'm fully aware that you have difficulties, and I've said such before; however, I disagree with the "source" of your problems. It doesn't matter whether we agree over that or not; the differences are still the same. If you move on from them, then good for you.



Have fun with that. Actually, there are quite a lot of people who are ok with differences once they're informed about them; believing that everyone who is NT is automatically against you is intolerant against them. You're not going to make much progress in getting them to accept differences if you go around telling them that they're all being intolerant.



Undoubtedly, however, they were still noticed by others. People were not as dependent on mental health in those days though, and they didn't feel the need to go in for an explanation. I doubt that made it any easier for those back then. Besides, for a time people on the spectrum were diagnosed with other things; they weren't called AS or autistic, but they still had labels, such as schizophrenia.

Differences are abnormal. There's nothing wrong with being different, and there's nothing wrong with being abnormal.



Whether or not you tried isn't important. What's important is that you obviously had difficulties in functioning in a social manner.



Did he actually put in your file that you are unfit for employment, or did he just label you impaired? There's a difference between the two.



You have to actually try for your rights. You can't sit back and expect people to hand them to you; in an ideal world, yeah, you could, but this world isn't ideal. Impaired is a word; I defined it for you last time, but apparently that's just not working for you. You can still be you. You have to explain how you're able to do well in society to get a job, but everyone has to do that to a certain extent.

And no, society cannot accommodate every single person. It would be unrealistic and damaging to society at large. The world does not revolve around you, as it does not revolve around anyone; you have to be able to adjust to how it is. Being stubborn and refusing to try will get you nowhere.



So try. Get out there and prove to people that you are just as capable of everyone else.



So you should start fighting in a way that will get you somewhere. Trying to change the world won't get you very far at all; trying to convince the people that you need to believe in you that you're just as good as everyone else will. Of course the minorities have rights, but no, the majority is under no obligation to try and adapt to fit everyone in. As I said before, that's unrealistic. The majority caters to itself and society as a whole, and you can whine about it all you want, but that's not going to change anything. Because if all you do to try and further yourself is act like you're acting here, you will get absolutely nowhere.



I'm really not always a witch. I'm just a fairly realistic one.



Which is still a very large part; it's not realistic, I'm sorry. People have to compromise to get things done; you have to change a bit too. Yeah, aspies seem to take disagreements a lot more seriously than most. It's not good to try and speak for all aspies at any time though; it's false advertising, and the moment another group of aspies steps up to argue your ideas, the people who you campaigned to are going to suspect everything you said.



And I'm saying that the focus is right. Most people aren't blaming anyone; the problem comes when you have extremists who start trumpeting about saying that they - and everyone like them - blame the other group. It is an impairment, whether you like it or not; if you're not going to accept it, then don't, but that doesn't change it. You are not going to be able to change everyone to accept you, because that's how life is. If that makes me a defeatist, then so be it; I happen to be a content defeatist because I didn't overburden myself with unrealistic expectations.



And while that may be for you, you are not everyone who is labeled impaired. I'm labeled impaired, but I have a job; obviously, our experiences aren't the same, and I'm not going to go around insisting that all employers are going to accept you despite the impairment label. I'm denying you to speak for everyone in order to further your views; you don't have a right to do that anyway. There is no objective study concerning such.



Shouting is really unattractive. I'm not talking about employers right now, I'm talking about people you want to be friends with. You are insisting that you are not impaired socially, which means that you are not abnormal in a social context, which means that you have no differences in interacting with others; hence, you should be perfectly fine with making friendships and relationships without ever informing them of your dx.



I never said it was right; I said that it was how it is.



You're being paranoid in regards to this; I never have patience for conspiracy theories.

what the asdhating blog at blogspot? Yeah it is a nasty bit of opinionated,egotistical, biased and delusional bile and has already got two members being attacked from quotes used here. There will be more give him time. TLPG is too radical for reason and rationale.

And yet you'll note that I haven't accused you of being ignorant of aspies, whereas you clearly accused me of such.

You've yet to inform me how my experience is inadequate.

A difference, simply by its very definition, is abnormal.

The majority defines what is normal because the majority is the most common; you cannot say it is normal for the grocery stores to solely sell peaches and chicken nuggets when most grocery stores sell far more than that; there may be a few that only sell those, but they are not the majority; they are abnormal (and their lack of supply would most likely impair them from selling as much as other stores, because most people eat more than peaches and chicken nuggets).

The world being flat still has nothing to do with this. It was not a fact, but the difference between socialization is a fact.

You can deny all you want, but that won't make it false; when you deny that there is a difference (and thus, one is abnormal) between NTs and those on the spectrum, you are denying that there is a reason for the spectrum. It is not BS.

They are not telling us what to do. No where does it state that if you are impaired, you must immediately change your ways. You can continue living like you always have.

I feel like I'm communicating with a child. We. Are. Impaired.

Our differences in communication are abnormal compared to the majority of society, and that impairs us.

We are going to be isolated whether or not you give it a name, because of the way we act

You cannot continuously blame all of your problems on the NTs; take responsibility for yourself.

It's everyone's fault. You're being just as intolerant of them as they are being of you.

Intolerance will never go away; you are preaching intolerance now. You are denying facts to make yourself feel better, and that's getting no one anywhere.

How does your point have anything to do at all about whether or not aspies are socially impaired?

If you choose to be angry every single time someone holds an intolerant view, you'll be angry your entire life, so angry that it will cripple any and all potential you hold.

You are over-exaggerating what you view as intolerance time and time again.

I'm labeled as socially impaired due to a different disorder. I have a job, I have an education, I have a life. It didn't kill me, hasn't killed me, won't kill me.

The only one ruining your life is you. You became so overly emotional at the thought of being "impaired" that you were willing to throw away your funds to have it removed.

There's no reason you cannot go in and sell yourself if you really, really, and really want a job that you're capable and suited for.

Go in and tell them that yes, you are socially impaired, but that doesn't stop you from getting work done

Don't conduct yourself like a bitter person who can't stand being different

Conduct yourself like a professional who is confident that he can do it.

You believe having an abnormal way of functioning, a way of being different, is to be inferior?

Your problem is not the label, your problem is your attitude towards it.

So explain it to them; tell them what it affects and how, don't just sulk and think they should automatically know.

You can still achieve with the labels, you just have to try harder, which you seem opposed to doing.

She can still function in the same social manner, however, if she is given the opportunity, much like said people with revealing clothes can function in the same social manner is given the chance in other societies.

The woman can if she has the opportunity; the aspie can't, regardless of the opportunity.

You may look on both sides, but you don't look at them with the same understanding; you are inclined to believe "your" side, and that's what you do; your opinion is subjective.

There's no where that says you have to be dxed if you suspect that you're an aspie; at the age you did it, you cannot blame it on your parents, and you need to take responsibility for the fact that you went in there fully aware that you may not like what they told you; they are experts on it, whereas you are not.

I cannot function in the same manner as the majority does because I cannot understand them, nor can I give off the signals that they understand knowingly or not.

What's important is that you obviously had difficulties in functioning in a social manner.

Did he actually put in your file that you are unfit for employment, or did he just label you impaired? There's a difference between the two.

So try. Get out there and prove to people that you are just as capable of everyone else.

Shouting is really unattractive.

I never said it was right; I said that it was how it is.

You're being paranoid in regards to this; I never have patience for conspiracy theories.

If there's one thing I can't stand, it's fellow Aspies sucking up to the NT world. Here's another one, from Wrong Planet. Sucking up to the NT world plays into the hands of a system that is incapable of coping with the interests of the Spectrum - and it inhibits it's ability to change. There was a time that Aspies were allowed to meld into the system, because the system of the past was individualised, rigid and predictable. That suited the routine and autonomous needs of Aspies.

But today there is way too much flexibility and so forth, so issues come out into the open. What Selo also doesn't see is how this is a bad thing for the world. In employment for example, there was once a demand for quality. Things lasted because the predominant attitude was "get it right". Right up the alley of an Aspie. But now quality is not as important as quantity. Selo seems to think we Aspies are the ones who should adjust to that. That's a crock of crap, and I gave it to her with both barrels for comments like;

* I don't understand why Aspies don't want a cure for their own defect.
* Even if it's "diversity" or whatever, it's not normal to have AS.
* It's a physical difference in the brain that leads to behavioral differences, and therefore it should be cured.
* Aspies don't empathize.
* They don't understand half of what they're being told.
* They don't get along with others.
* They don't get included in groups.
* They don't want to do anything except their narrow interest.
* 99% of the time they don't even talk. That sounds like one hell of a tragedy to me.
* I personally admire what Autism Speaks is trying to accomplish and I'm in full support of a cure.

Aspergers is not a defect, there's no such thing as normal, physical differences and behavioural differences should NOT be cured (that's DNA fiddling), Aspies CAN empathise and do, any problems understanding is rectified by better explanations and the only people we don't get along with is the intolerant (the group issue follows that). As for that heinous reflection on special interests! And we talk!

Being in full support of a cure rounds that off very effectively - Selo is a dangerous person whose understanding of Aspergers issues is offline and not realistic. Her attutude holds back the NT world's understanding of the Spectrum - and it has to be nipped in the bud and quickly.

After my first challenge she persisted with her appalling line - including refusing to recognise that being black DOES have consequences equal to that of Aspies (I told her that if AS was a defect then so was black skin - just to make her look like an idiot. Of course neither are defects). She even called providing information "tedious"! How intolerant can you get? And when I used medicine as an example of a special interest - she turns around and tries to claim it will be all about study and not practice! Talk about narrow minded! And as for this;

* In which case the whole spectrum is the defect, because a "different way of being" is voluntary but a disorder isn't. I doubt anyone here chose to act AS the moment they were born.

A different way of being is NOT voluntary, you fool!! Again - refer to those with black skin. It's a different way of being that is FORCED on us by the combination of being born this way, and the way we are treated by the NT world. Get a clue, Selo!

Idiot.

Isn't it obvious? You are putting down my experience without quoting your own. I rather think that says quite a lot.

Right, now that's racist - because that definition fits black skin against white skin. SInce when was black skin abnormal, hmmm?

No, they are not abnormal - they are different. And they would only open such a store in an area where there is high demand for peaches and chicken nuggets. I call that good business - and not abnormal.

NOW you call it a difference. That's more like it - keep it that way because it's correct.

As explained - abnormal does NOT equal different, unless you are a racist (and/or some other sort of bigot). I am NOT denying there is a reason for the Spectrum. I AM denying your explanation for it, because it defines a word that can not and should not be defined - normal.

If that was true, I'd have a job. They ARE telling us what to do, and that includes keeping us out of employment by labelling us impaired - when we are not.

I'll spell it for you - W-E A-R-E N-O-T I-M-P-A-I-R-E-D ! !! What is it going to take to get you to understand the FACT? And I resent the insinuation that I'm a child - when it's YOU who isn't listening.

What RESTRICTS us is the intolerance for those differences, not the differences themselves.

And you talk like that's a good thing - or rather the done thing!

You think I haven't tried? I've tried - and it has got me nowhere. Guess why! Don't try and defend the NT's - I've had a gutful of them and the power they have over us, a power that you frankly refuse to acknowledge or accept.

That's the way I operate. They treat me a certain way - they'll get it back. I firmly believe that is not only the right thing to do, it is also mostly the ONLY thing to do. The buck has to stop with someone - and in this case it's the NT's. Whatever we try that adversely affects the NT's they'll oppose and drive us down. I've experienced it - and I've seen it happen to other Aspies. This is a fact that you refuse to acknowledge and is at the core of our disagreement.

Again - I treat people the way they treat me. If I'm intolerant to you, that's because you've been doing it to me - and I've said that as well. Sure it's not getting us anywhere - but who fired the first show of intolerance? I can answer that - it was you. All because YOU are denying the facts that I am giving you about myself and my experience. Are you calling me a liar when I tell you what has happened to me?

Socially ISOLATED, not impaired. And isolation in other ways as well (which is why it's relevant)

I control that annoyance - except when the intolerance is aimed squarely at me personally. So you expect me to stop fighting? Forget it - only cowards do that, and I'm not a coward.

There you go again - no respect for my personal experience. No wonder we aren't getting anywhere.

It won't kill me either, because I won't let it. You've avoided the wrath of the NT world - and for that I can only say you've been very lucky.

It cost me a job!! ANd it cut me off from any future employment!! So what would you do? Sit on your thumbs and become a vegetable, and let that happen? Any person with any sense would do no such thing. I rather think that being a vegetable is a stronger death sentence than anything else! That first sentence should be apologised for.

Yes there is - that medical report, which by law I MUST present at the appropriate time. I'm in a different country to you don't forget. And besides - I don't lie.

*bites tongue very hard* I nearly flew off the handle at that pathetic remark. I am different and I am PROUD of it!

Worthless - employers are more interested in what you can't do when one has a medical report in front of them. Again - I speak through experience.

It's both, and the attitude is not a problem because it's the correct reaction to it. Again, you are challenging me to accept myself as impaired - and I will not. I am DIFFERENT!

That's what caused my last employer to send me to the medical officer, and consequently lost my job. So that advice is poorly informed.

Note - I have never passed an interview in my life. Both of the jobs I got were via passing written tests.

How can she when she is sent packing without getting the chance to socialise? You seem unable to accept there are people around who would do that, just like you seem unable to grasp the whole concept of social isolation as a much wider issue than just our AS differences.



Oh yes the Aspie can! As long as the environment is tolerant and accepting - and again this is something that I have experienced. My social skills are actually OK when my special interests are involved - and the tolerance level is better as a result. So we CAN! It's up to the other side to make it possible.

It only appears subjective to you because you are not respecting my side of the issue and I am fighting back against that. Maybe you are the one who needs to step back and look at both sides.

WHAT? How dare you! I NEVER blamed my parents for anything associated with my AS DX! Then or before! I DID like what I was told - because it was a missing explanation! And the fact that it was MISSING is the reason why you can not possibly claim I went in there "fully aware" of ANYTHING!

So you ask. You pursue the knowledge so you can understand why they react the way they do. They should do the same thing.

It's on file - and in writing.

So is annoying the crap out of someone - which is what you are doing to me. I claim provocation.

Which is the same thing.

I could quote Frank Burns from MASH here, but I won't. I'm not paranoid. Yet again - you treat my personal experience AND what I've seen happen to other Aspies with contempt.

And for that - I say goodbye to this thread. I have nothing further to say to you.

Finally - everyone please ignore Sir Les. He has a severe personal bias against me and it is that bias with which he is speaking. I'll leave it at that, because our dispute does not belong on this forum.

Normal can and should be defined. And it is.