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DrizzleMan
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24 Nov 2005, 6:53 am

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Last edited by DrizzleMan on 26 Nov 2005, 8:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

MrSensitive
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24 Nov 2005, 6:42 pm

I feel we are all more alike than different, but I think the essential difference between HFAs and us is that HFAs don't want much to do with people.


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danlo
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25 Nov 2005, 12:58 am

MrSensitive wrote:
I feel we are all more alike than different, but I think the essential difference between HFAs and us is that HFAs don't want much to do with people.

A lot of HFAers are disinterested in people, it's true. But there are people who have HFA who are interested in people. Similarly, there are people dx'd with AS who aren't interested in people. It's more of a personality difference than anything. You could say that, since generally they're disinterested in people, it can be a differentiating trait, but you can't say it's an essential difference.



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09 Feb 2006, 7:15 pm

I’m HFA, I learnt to speak very late (4 for first words, 6 or 7 in complete sentences), I feel despite being very high functioning, I feel I am more like Raymond Babbit from Rain Man than a lot of others on wrongplanet. I dunno if these aspects of myself is result of myself being fairly severely autistic or they are a result of my personality independent of autism (for example if I had been NT, I would have been a quite introvered guy not much interested in other people, rather than say the extremely outgoing people person my dad, my sister and brother are).

I am very socially withdrawn, despite I enjoy talking to other people, and I’ve never wanted to go over the other people’s places, go out with other people or go to parties or other social functions. This despite I actually enjoy going out and travelling, but by myself rather than others.

I’ve lacked a desire to make closer friends throughout my life. I am very self absorbed and never until quite recently when it was starting to affect my chances of ever moving out of home and getting a reasonably paid job was not worried about being unbelievably socially isolated.



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09 Feb 2006, 10:20 pm

Well, I have some hypotheses on the subject which I won't go into fully, but I think AS and Autistic Disorder, especialy HFA, are on a spectrum of severity, not necessarily just within personality and behavior, which to me are results of a cause or causes.

I really think similar things, both environmental triggers and genetics, cause ASDs and that if the resulting ASD is due to brain damage or a prevention of intended development (meaning the ASD wouldn't have occured without that environmental trigger or triggers), then potentially there is a spectrum as to the amount of functional damage or disruption done to the brain. Whether they're due wholly or in part to brain damage or prevented development it doesn't really matter. There are generalized anatomical locations of various functions. If the person has difficulty with speech, then regardless of what causes it, there's clearly something which has effected either the anatomy or chemistry of this language center or any associated pathways which lead to speech production.

It stands to reason then that if HFAers tend to be more severely affected in their speech than are Aspies, though both definitely seem affected to some extent, then it is reasonable to suppose that other structures or functions within the brain might be equally affected to a similar extent. Meaning, HFAers may have greater deficits in more areas than many Aspies because their brain, whatever the cause, has been more greatly affected overall.

And the same goes when contrasting and comparing a low-functioning individual vs. a high-functioning individual. The LFA person's brain is more likely affected more severely overall than an HFAer. This isn't the case for everyone, but it could possibly be an accurate generalization.

Some of my reasoning on this point is much of the reading I've been doing on individual brain damage studies, which help revel the location or pathways of various functions. Many of these single symptoms which some brain-damaged patients display are mirrored in the Autistic Spectrum in many instances. That's not a guarantee that what we are are damaged, though I wouldn't count it out. It just simply points to the brain functions in each of our disorders which are affected. Many of the social faux pas's we make, much of the misreading of nonverbal cues, some who have speech production problems or a monotone voice, are all mirrored back in individual lesion studies. Autism is like a hodgepodge in each of us of a huge amount of functions being disrupted. It's probably anatomically/chemically/functionally pervasive. And it seems to pick and choose between each of us, because none of us are alike. The functions or lack thereof of my brain are not identical to any one of you and vice versa. Some autties on here find it difficult to write or speak a lot and are just very quiet, while I clearly talk WAAAAAAAY too much. This isn't just because genetically I'm a talker. It's reflected in the functioning of my brain as well.

Behaviorally, we are all autistic. As for cause and the exact arrangement of disrupted functions, we're not necessarily identical at all.


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anbuend
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10 Feb 2006, 3:50 pm

There's a paper I just read, that said, in part:

Enhanced Perceptual Functioning in Autism wrote:
There are currently two major sources of heterogeneity in primary PDDs, i.e. individuals presenting with an autistic phenotype unrelated to toher diagnosable conditions and/or gross neurological abnormalities. The first distinction, currently labelled the Asperger vs. autism distinction, opposes individuals with a precocious use of speech, unremarkable visuo-spatial abilities, and frequent motor clumsiness, to individuals with superior visuo-spatial abilities and late or absent use of expressive speech. Within the latter autistic group, a secondary source of variability opposes the individuals who use oral language to those who don't. Use of overt speech has to be distinguished from a high vs. low functioning distinction, considering the high IQs (measured by, e.g., PPVT or Raven's Progressive Matrices) of certain "mute" autistics, and their frequent ability to read and to communicate via text. The other distinction is that some members of the autistic group develop considerable expertise in certain materials and are labelled "autistic savants".

There are no available convincing data that autism with vs. without overt peaks of ability, with vs. without overt speech, or overall autism vs. Asperger syndrome, differs at a genetic level. Even language abilities cannot be used to distinguish autism from Asperger syndrome, as written language experts are as representative of autism as oral language experts are representative of Asperger's. Although attractive, the endophenotype explanation of differences within autistic cognitive profiles produced conflicting findings (Nurmi et al., 2003; Ma et al., 2005). Also, the search for anomalies in the genes implicated in dysphasia in available autistic samples was unsuccessful (Gauthier et al., 2003; MRC, 2001; Tager-Flusberg, Joseph, & Folstein, 2001; Volkmar, Lord; Bailey, Schultz & Klin, 2004). The sole phenotypic distinction which is currently supported by data is that which separates primary (Pavone et al., 2004) or "essential" (Miles et al., 2005) autism, which is characterized by higher IQ, high heritability, low epilepsy rate, and absence of brain macroscopic abnormalities, vs. secondary (or "complex") autism, with higher incidence of mental retardation, epilepsy and brain abnormalities, and lower heritability.

In the absence of specific genetic subtyping, the explanation of PDD subtypes by a post-natal overspecialization processes have to be also considered, inasmuch as savant syndrome provides an autistic model for the subtyping of PDD. The heterogeneity of the autistic phenotype at older ages would result from an overspecialization to a certain perceptual material inherent to the developmental course of autism. Autistic subtypes with and without a visuo-spatial peak, autism with or without overt speech, and even the autism vs. Asperger distinction may be at least partially produced by differences in objects of expertise, in opportunity or lack thereof to enact perceptual specialization and expertise, and by the related "stoppage rule" associated with this specialization when it is allowed the means to develop. A precocious (Asperger), late (autistic with competent speech), or either slight or futile (autistic with sparse speech) investment in oral language as a perceptually defined material of interest should play a major role in eventual phenotypic heterogeneity. Conversely, the nature of the apparent neglect for "unchosen" domains may be identical for savant syndrome, autism and possibly Asperger syndrome. Although this hypothesis may appear unconventional and speculative, we contend that importing a model within PDD to explain PDD is less risky than the common use of importing brain-injured models of non-autistic individuals to account for an autistic difference. For example, use of frontally injured, typically developing patients to construct the executive deficit hypothesis is based on superficial analogies (Pennington & Ozonoff, 1996) and on a "residual normalcy" (Thomas & Karmiloff-Smith, 2002) assumption. Similarly, the use of typically developing temporally injured patients has produced dead-end models, like our "agnosia" hypothesis of autism (Mottron et al., 1997).


That's from "Enhanced Perceptual Functioning in Autism: An Update, and Eight Principles of Autistic Perception" by Laurent Mottron, Michelle Dawson, Isabelle Soulières, Benedict Hubrt, and Jake Burack.

My interpretation of this (and of the rest of the paper, in this regard) is that the way some people look at autism, as analogous to adult brain damage to previously NT people, is probably not accurate. The differences between different "subtypes" of autism may have more to do with what kind of perceptual specialization a person develops, than some intrinsic, original, essential difference in the brain structures between the different autism subtypes.

And also, that comparing autistic children, to brain-damaged adults, is a flawed analogy but one that neurologists have been making for a long time. (I read the paper they referenced on that too, and it's all about how there's kind of an assumption that "neurodevelopmental disorders" and adult brain damage are similar kinds of things, just because some of the results may look similar, and that people who've always been neurologically atypical are described in terms of "damaged" and "intact" functions. One of the counterexamples they gave was that people with Williams Syndrome supposedly had "intact" facial recognition, i.e. the same way normal people do it, just with other skills missing around it. It turned out that people with Williams syndrome used huge portions of their brains, rather than the typical small specialized area, to recognize faces. So they were questioning whether you could just claim that in someone who's always been neuro-atypical, there were sort of "damaged" island-areas and then "intact" other-areas and that kind of thing.)

(There's a lot more to this paper than this, but I thought that part was relevant to threads like this one.)


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danlo
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10 Feb 2006, 4:47 pm

Interesting, anbuend. Is the excerpt from a book or a paper? Is it available online? My ideas on the difference have changed a fair amount since I started this thread. I understand and agree with your view on a personal level; I don't think many people disagree with you on a personal level. Most people don't use the autism stereotypes to classify or determine how they treat someone, or whether they like or dislike them. The people I work with are a great example of that. We still like each other for most part, but people are seen as "grumpy", "cool", "funny", "relaxed", "quiet", "loud" etc. None is seen as "wrong", just some causes people to be unlikeable, or hard to get along with. On a personal level, noone ever looks at things in terms of "AS" or "HFA". But for the sake of intellectual curiosity, it would be interesting to know if there is one specific sort of thing that causes differences in expression. It's just plain interesting. I don't see a AS or HFA division as having any impact except to satisfy intellectual curiosity. So what's the problem?


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10 Feb 2006, 5:21 pm

I would advice members of wrong planet to go work with HFA and autistic children/people in general and build an experiance on which to decide for yourself where the similarities lie.

I should also point out that it was not too long ago that HFA was considered aspergers syndrome and although the terminology of HFA has been around longer then aspergers when the diagnosis came around in the early 90's you will find people diagnosed in that time (well the UK anyway) will have on their assessment High functioning autism Also known as Aspergers.



anbuend
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10 Feb 2006, 5:22 pm

It's a paper in the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders. I don't think the print edition is published yet. It's available online but only for a price unless you've got access to a university or something that subscribes to it.

I don't really understand all the stuff about "personal levels", though, given that the stuff I was quoting was mainly a scientific thing, not a personal one.


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Laz
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10 Feb 2006, 5:23 pm

anbuend wrote:
It's a paper in the Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders. I don't think the print edition is published yet. It's available online but only for a price unless you've got access to a university or something that subscribes to it.


I should be able to access it through my university account. Do you know what volume/issue and page number it is and the title of the journal



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10 Feb 2006, 5:25 pm

Yes i can access that journal what volume/issue is it



anbuend
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10 Feb 2006, 5:25 pm

Laz wrote:
I should be able to access it through my university account. Do you know what volume/issue and page number it is and the title of the journal


Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders. I can't find page numbers. It's going to be in the first 2006 issue, whichever one that is.


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anbuend
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10 Feb 2006, 5:27 pm

Oh, and here's the PubMed link with the abstract (editing to make the link not mess up browser windows):

PubMed thing


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10 Feb 2006, 5:30 pm

Ok its too recent for me to access it electronically (its only going up to the last 2005 issue). But it will be available in the flesh at the library

Would you like me to retrieve it for you guys?



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11 Feb 2006, 1:08 am

Laz wrote:
Ok its too recent for me to access it electronically (its only going up to the last 2005 issue). But it will be available in the flesh at the library

Would you like me to retrieve it for you guys?


I was just thinking the same thing (of me going to university and finding it). ;)

As for "brain damage", I realize a lot of autistic symptoms resemble brain damage and that in some individuals (I've heard the term Complex Autism used to describe those who have an ASD strictly due to indentifiable brain damage) brain damage is at least the main cause just simply by probability.

But I've done some reading on some hypotheses on Schizophrenia where a certain type of substance (I don't remember what it's called) aids in the movements of neuronal cells in the developing fetal brain, and if this is interrupted, the brain doesn't develop quite as intended. Now, this isn't damage per se because I'd look on damage as taking away from an already formed brain as opposed to preventing its development in the first place. This is what I meant by prevention.

And of course for Schizophrenia there's hypotheses about what in the environment triggers this off: flu, Rubella, etc.; I thought a similar disruption, not necessarily the same, could explain the vast effect on the brain the state of "Autism" has. Those who have it due to brain damage show similar behavioral results because similar anatomical or chemical structures or pathways have been damaged. Whereas in the prevention hypothesis, these structures and pathways are prevented from the intended development and hence similar behaviors arise because the same areas or functions have been affected though with different causes.

I have read some individual case studies of Asperger individuals who have had brain damage show up on CAT scans, one I recall was in the right temporal lobe for one individual.

And for those which are more greatly genetic, there still is an environmental component most likely at play because for monozygotic twin studies, the concordance rate is only about 50%. Granted, that isn't necessarily proof and that the concordance rate would be more split if researchers were able to tell whose Autism was more directly the result of brain damage and those who had that genetic component. But it's more than probable that even for the genetic cases, genetics isn't everything.


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11 Feb 2006, 4:57 am

Sophist wrote:

I have read some individual case studies of Asperger individuals who have had brain damage show up on CAT scans, one I recall was in the right temporal lobe for one individual.

A few years back I had a SPECT scan (Single Photon Emission Computed Tomography). This measures blood flow in the brain while at rest or concentration. I had a concentration SPECT. What interests me in your post, Sophist, is the part about the right temporal lobe. For this is one of the areas in my brain that had reduced blood flow during the scan I had.
The temporal lobes play a role in memory processing, and the senses of smell and hearing, among other things.