Looking for suggestions for book titled Asperger's Disorder

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On antisocial PD:

On the topic of empathy... If it makes sense, then I feel it and I can be very pained by someone else's situation.

If I'm supposed to be all choked up and ball my eyes out because Princess Di died... well, sorry, no empathy... I'm not going to be all torn up because someone's cat died, I hate cats, but hearing that they lost their dog might trigger great feelings of sadness for me, because I love dogs.

It's not like I don't have empathy, I do, it's just picky; like everything else about me.

I'd encourage you to cover the growing autistic culture movement at length, and some of the political and social issues relating to our community. They represent important things for clinicians and researchers to be aware of.

This is just great . Very much increases my understanding of what the heck is going on here. In terms of the antisocial behavior, there are these reports of strange behaviors, usually obsessional, that end up with some people getting charged with a crime. From what I can tell it is more likely that these people probably actually suffer with ASPD rather than Asperger's, since law-breaking is antisocial. One report though reports that a lawyer used a lack of theory of mind as a reason for not guilty by reason of insanity in a person with Asperger's.

I suppose I will try to research the advocacy movement some. Any important things to include? This thing about acquiring AutismSpeaks seems providential. You have very much clarified my understanding of empathy. It seems that logic prevails here. I still have difficulty letting go of Asperger's Disorder. If we take Disorder from Aspeger's then we ought to take it from all of the other diagnoses (MDD, Bipolar, borderline, etc) as well, since each comes with order that may not fit in this society. Psychiatric evolutionary theory hold thats premise- for example that anxious people were less likely to die in a threatening and thus the survival of anxiety, something that is a "disorder" when it is in the wrong context.

oh just realized the acquistion of autism speaks was for april fools. thought that was pretty amazing!

The difference of Aspergers and the other DX's you mentioned is that they have a psychological bases and Aspergers is a neurological difference. My BF has Multiple Sclerosis...neurological but not labeled in the DSM because it is not a psychological illness but neurological and probably caused by an over active (dysfunctional) immune response. I actually hypothisis that there is something similiar going on with "some" of the traits associated with AS but NOT the actual difference in "wiring" of the brain....(I believe that is the part that allows some with AS to hyper focus and a minority to have sevant skills.)

I don't think it is impossible for some people with AS to commit crimes. If their special interest is intense enough and they have to break a law to have access to it...that may over ride the black and white thinking that "right is right and wrong is wrong". But although those thiings may make headlines(people love novelty not common),they are in the minority and maybe more related to OCD...having one DX does not disallow for having a mental illness.(sometimes just living with AS in a society that little understands and even persecutes those with those traits can lead to alot of depression and anxiety that have nothing to do with the brain wiring of AS.)


I imagine that others could break the law because of their nievity...trusting people, and their desire for some human companionship...it happened to me in my teens. Some may break a law because they believe the law to be illogical and unjust(like the law that said humans could own other humans?).However, you have to put it in prospective. I hear just as many head-lines about CEO commiting crimes based on their own neurosis....greed. Often they appear to have no empathy for the victems of their actions and greed and the government ends up bailing these folks out...not labeling them with a very deserved label of "dysfuntional".


I don't have time right now to even begin to address this whole "Theory of Mind" thing.....but I see examples of it all the time...in profesionals and AS experts who define my behavior and "mind" based on their own minds. NT's appear to lack aspie theory of mind, so it doesn't surprise me that I might at times not understand their "minds" but at least I have the logic to realize that that may happen.

Excellent bewildered, you've raised exactly the right question about the appropriateness of the term "disorder." It's all about context, which is why I'd be reluctant to describe asperger's as a disorder.

Life in our modern society has more than one context. When it comes to interactions with other people, my Asperger's is unambiguously a disorder. A more appropriate clinical term might be Asperger's Disaster.

In other routine contexts of modern life, however, my Asperger's is highly adaptive. This varies greatly between individuals depending on their talents and inclinations, but it's undeniably so common among aspies that it cannot legitimately be ignored.

In general, it has to do with a much greater than average ability to focus, to pay attention to detail, and to think in ways that others don't.

I'm sure you're aware that a lot of talented, intelligent and hardworking aspies are severely limited in their accomplishments by the fact that most people dislike us and the fact that people very often get an intuitive impression that we're stupid.

It might be worth considering the question from a pragmatic rather than a semantic viewpoint. Would calling Asperger's a disorder make life better or worse for individual aspies?

Considering the number of aspies out there, it would be remarkable if none of them ever committed a crime. People with red hair commit crimes, but I doubt if that's related to their hair color.

I can't imagine being surprised by the absurdity of something a lawyer came up with.

krex wrote:
Sleepydragon....thanks for sharing the "Emotion Alphabet"....I really think you need to register/trademark it.It would make a great poster for ASers....would NT's "get it"?It seems to me to be the aspie alternative to those shirts/posters that have those faces of emotions on them(most of which I have no idea what they are supposed to be except for the explanation under them.)Maybe you could use the faces and combine them with your alphabet,so that aspies an NT's could communicate better?Anyway,thought they were great.

On a seperate note....I was thinking recently about empathy.I have always had difficulty understanding the concept and thought I tend to be hyper-empathic.....but maybe only in certain situations?One of the things I think is a problem,especially when stating that ASers do not have empathy is in peoples lack of honesty in talking about themselves.Because this is such an "abstract" concept,I have put it into the kind of literal analogy that works best for me....ie...something I can visualize.



Krex rant on "walking in someone else's shoes"....

I can walk in someone else's shoes if I know what they are wearing,why they are wearing them and if they have any foot problems,like a bunyon.It helps if I have worn that kind of foot wear myself and have felt similar bunions but I can stretch my imagination(Does a bunion feel like an ingrown toenail....I have those and it hurts to wear tight shoes).I can also research what a bunion is and that will help me understand the persons pain.But if the person doesnt tell anyone they have a bunion...I may not understand their pain.If I dont know that they are wearing high heeled shoes because they are embarrassed about being short(they were teased about this by peers)or because they read that they make their legs look sexier and they want to find a boyfriend.....I am going to have difficulty understanding why they choose to wear those shoes because I would never wear them and find the practice similar to modern "footbinding".I might assume that they are simply uninformed about the long term damage of such foot apparel and being foolish to damage their bodies for 'fashion'.I might still have difficulty relating to wearing those shoes but I can at least understand someone making sacrifices because of personal insecurities as this IS something I have done.

The problems come from people who are not honest(with others or even themselves)about how they feel.I can hardly be expected to walk in their shoes if they dont even know,themselves,how they feel in those shoes or why they are wearing them.
It is very difficult to wear the shoes of people who are illogical in their choice of foot wear.They HAVE to have the $300 dollar pair of shoes(even though they know that there are many people who are going barefoot because of their need for those expensive shoes).OK,I may understand this need if I just assume they are insane(which I do... )but it does make it hard to walk in those shoes myself,as I have never been insane,(in that way).

So,that is my take on aspie empathy.We only have difficulty being empathetic when people do not disclose important information,are self delusional or insane.

I work with dogs.Other staff dont seem to check to see if the dog has clean water or have urine soaked bedding.I check because I can imagine that I would not like to sleep on wet bedding or drink icky water.Maybe the dogs done care that I check these things and make sure they are comfortable from "my perspective".They do seem to pick up that I care about them through these small acts of concern for their welfare.I often wonder if the other staff do not notice these things or think they are unimportant to the dog or they are just to lazy to do anything about it(they seem to prefer standing in the kitchen gossiping with each other).I cant seem to walk in their shoes because they dont fit me.So,do I lack empathy for them?

And that's how my week was.Glad to be back among people who I sort of "get" most of the time and whose shoes seem more comfortable or at least something I have worn before myself.

Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2007 5:03 pm Post subject:

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Merle,thanks for the info about bunyons and why you have them.That is what I was getting at.Honesty leads to understanding of anothers perspective and for me, that is empathy.

My mother didnt tell me that her biological mother(she was adopted)was a prostitute that use to leave her and her brother for days,while she went out drinking,etc. until a few years ago.WHY?Because the time she lived in,that was such a shamful admission,that it was seen as a reflection on the children.My father didnt tell me that his own father was an alcoholic until I went into "treatment" to get sober,myself.I had very little empathy for my parents because they never allowed themselves to "be human".They never admitted that they were to tired or scared to do something.My mom never used the word migrains but just got really crabby and told me to "go out to play".I'm not saying people should just "dump out their whole live stories or problems onto others" but unless we let ourselves be vulnerable and less then perfect,how can empathy be achieved?When so many people put on an "act" and I take their words for the truth,how can I be blamed for not showing proper empathy?

What got me thinking about the whole empathy thing was co-workers slamming each other at work.I know I complain about some peoples laziness and lack of compassion for the dogs...two things I seem to have no empathy for,but I often try and make excuses for a person being bossy or someone who cries and acts the "victem" all the time.(just a few ex.),because my mind works that way....trying to "make sense" out of human "flaws" and because I want people to extend the same forgiveness to me,when I am flawed.I think that this makes me come off as,"holier then thou",which my own mother accused me of since I was young.I know intellectually that I am expected to agree with the person making the comments so that they dont have to feel bad about being critical but I feel very uncomfortable doing that,so I dont.

Anyway,I would be interested in anyone elses input on how they view this whole "empathy" thing because it is one of the things I get hung up on, when trying to understand AS.We have trolls on this site,who may or may not be AS and we have many misunderstandings because we are so used to be atacked we often see it when it is not there....but I also see a lot of compassion here.Maybe it is because we can see ourselves in others here,more then in RL world of NT's whose motives and emotions ellude us?But how did Asers get the whole "lack of empathy" label in the first place?Is it just because we dont say the correct platitudes or show the correct facial expressions or because our life experiences are so different that we cant understand "how or why" of NT feelings?

More questions then answers.Any insights would be appreciated.
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Just because one plane is flying out of formation, doesnt mean the formation is on course....R.D.LangI did it my way!

There are many discussions on this board pondering empathy, love and other emotions. Because of these discussions the definitions of these terms are enlarged.

I have spent a year on Wrong Planet and I would suggest that equally valid but often overlooked in medical textbooks is what people on the spectrum have to say about their condition. Many are very insightful including older aspies.

I tend towards the syndrome myself. Having been DXed with Bipolar (rightly or wrongly, this isn't the only DX that I've had that isn't exactly on target), self DXed with AS. Bipolar is well known even though they no longer use Manic Depressive as much. It is lumped in with disorder and maybe it's just me, but the public's view of disorder just conotates something sour in theirs mouths, that and some serious one sided press/horror stories. The prejudice one faces if they find out about you is very real. So far this hasn't happened with AS and I might hope that the use of "syndrome" might give a bit of sway. I am not disordered, I think differently and feel differently is all. Some here are very much like me in that sense, which I believe lends credence to the use of syndrome.

If I were writing the preface to a book of this sort, I'd mention the paradox of Asperger's.

As aspie doesn't appear to have anything obviously wrong with them, but the condition has a devastating effect on pretty much every part of their lives.

I used to be treated a little like I was a jerk. To this day, I still get comments from people saying that I am being rude when I just don't understand. I am like Krex. I need to understand what it is like for a person to walk in their own shoes before I can walk in theirs.

I don't make sense of my feelings, but when it comes to empathy one thing I have found I can do is just go with them. For those of you that don't know, I am the type of person that can feel the feelings of the people around me, I just don't always understand it. However, that does not stop me from trying, and I will go up to people and tell them I get the impression that they are x,y, and z and then we can talk about it, which helps.

And when they are feeling bad, I can just tell them I am sorry they feel that way. I've made friends in the past by basically trying to comfort them and crying with them even when I did not understand why we were crying.

Back to the name, I'd avoid Autism Spectrum Syndrome because the acronym is ASS.

Z