They won't believe me...

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Summary, because this is a way too long topic:

I KNOW I have problems paying attention to things. If it's not riveting, I can't keep my mind on it. But I had this neuropsych evaluation a little while ago, and it was in the perfect environment--quiet, one on one, no distractions. There was a five-minute task which was supposed to show whether or not I got distracted easily. I got a perfect score.

Five minutes. That's all. Try me twenty minutes down the road, or have somebody chatting in the background, and see how well I concentrate. Then try me when the test isn't a novelty anymore and I've done it a lot and it's boring.

I don't know whether it's ADHD or just some part of Asperger's; and in any case, I don't want to be medicated; but I really do have problems with this. If it's not fascinating, there's not enough willpower in the world to keep me doing it. That's a problem.

Oh, and memory. I know I have a very good memory for most things; I remember songs my mom sang to me when I was two, I remember random facts from a magazine I read last week (or last decade), I can learn a list of words perfectly with a little help from a mnemonic device. The tests also said my memory is perfect.

So how come it took me until college to learn my multiplication tables, even as I was learning to do calculus? This wasn't a conceptual problem; my brain's got no problems doing math. And speaking of calculus? All those formulas, the integrals and the derivatives and the theorems... I memorize them before the test; if I'm lucky, they stick around long enough to use them on the test. Then I memorize them again for the next test. It's gotten to the point that I have to go back and memorize trigonometry for a Differential Equations test.

They're never going to take my word for it. My memory is "perfect" because I can remember a list of ten words and repeat back seven numbers backwards and six forwards. (Yeah, that's right: I remember more when asked to process them by reversing the order. Most people remember more when simply repeating them back.)

I'm going begging at the academic assistance office at my new college. I want a quiet place to take tests in, so I don't get distracted by the scratching pencil of the guy next to me. I want somebody to help me out with studying so I don't have to choose between not doing homework and being so focused on details that I do it perfectly, get an A+, and take ten times as long. I'd really love it if I could take a sheet with the basic formulas (you know, trigonometry and algebra and the basic derivatives) into the advanced calculus class I'm enrolled in. Or, at the very least, I'd like lessons on how to memorize things so they stay memorized instead of dropping out of my head the second I'm not reviewing them every twenty minutes.

But this neuropsych evaluation... Well, I did my best on it. There are no below-average scores other than my mild CAPD and a bit of trouble with putting pictures in the right order when there's social content in them. They don't figure that when you are scoring at the 99th percentile, a score at the 50th percentile could be a problem. But it does!--it means that you've got the potential to be very, very good at something, and a related skill that's only average holds you back to only-average performance.

I went to the academic assistance office and told them I thought I might have memory problems. They read the evaluation--I know they did--because when I came back the same day my forms were sitting there with a little sticky note on them that said, "Memory OK".

My memory for math, apparently, is average. Six digits, or seven, is average. But it's NOT average not to know the multiplication tables unless you picture each quantity in your head, divide them into chunks, count the chunks, and finally come up with 8x8=64.

I don't even know if it's better or worse. I just know it doesn't help me when I'm dealing with a formula-happy professor.

When you're so good at compensating that you score average on tests, it's pretty hard to get help for what you can't even prove is a problem.

I don't want to flunk out of college again. Please... somebody tell me how to tell them that I really do need help!

I like your brain, probably because we have quite a bit in common. I, too, share the same problems you have with "contextless" information. I was able to find no shortcuts outside of mnemonics other than simply studying and absorbing the "Why," the reasoning behind the formulas and such, learning it as more of a language rather than short and meaningless visual shortcuts. In that context, it's much easier to understand and remember, but it's very difficult to find material and instructors who can and are willing to present the material in this manner.

I should also mention that I'm a college drop out who failed out of most of the classes in highschool after normal algebra and geometry. I think the context issue is at the core of things here, and I'd like to explore this further, probably since it can also benefit me. I'm just not sure how to begin =P

I can remember people telling me I can go to college because I am "very smart" but when I told them about my learning problems I had in school, they didn't belive me. They were like "No way, you're so smart, you can't have that problem."


They were probably the people who think LD is mental retardation or borderline. *sigh*

The system is flawed. As you pass through it, keep repeating to yourself, "They don't know what they're doing." Smile and then find creative ways around them without screwing yourself over. Learn how to play the game.

i have that same problem with math :/ its caused me to fail 9th grade 2 times. im hoping to catch up on the math skills i need so i can take my GED, cause im gonna be a hairstylist, and im sure i dont need advanced algebra, or much of anything past it, to make someones hair pretty without killing it (or them, lol) i dont know my multiplication tables eitehr <_<; but i wasnt taught it in school so that may explain why

If it's just the GED, and you know how to use them, and you're like me, then you'll be able to cram them in just before the test and have them stick around (hopefully) long enough to take the test.

I'm similar to you guys also! It is like 50 first dates! If I do it right, I can remember a LOT, including over a thousand words in a day and for a day. I guess I can't remember things as fast as you though. The next day is another story. I may forget much of it. With events, or things I get interested in, etc... it is another story.

I read materials on fission and fusion bombs yesterday. (You know, I always figured that little boy was less efficient than fat man, because it was less symmetrical, but I had no idea it was THAT bad! You would think the chain reaction would get more potential.) I ALSO read about fuel cells, depleted uranium, and a few other things. I still remember about as much. Today, I read about a number of planes. That was partly because I didn't know that, until 1980, the 747 was trimmed with 400-1500KG of DU!! !!

Hey guys, give me a break. I DID look at a LOT of things, and did this out of boredom. . And I got a LOT more useless info like that the DC-8 was the first non piston aircraft made by Douglas! Still, I passed by MOST of the data because it wasn't interesting, and I have ALREADY learned about 2000 French words like 3 times.

I DID learn my times tables, but haven't had some of the success you have. I guess I should be happy though. Many of my coworkers don't even WANT to learn their jobs.

On the numbers portion of the test, I did the opposite to you (though as my reply to your blog post notes, as far as math I am pretty similar to your skills patterns) - I think I got to 8 or 9 digits forward, and about 2 or 3 backwards - after all, if I'm repeating it, then I just have to remember the sounds and repeat it, which is why I would do even better if he said the numbers quickly rather than slowly.

But when saying them backward, that means that I have to actually process the sounds as words representing numbers (in order to distinguish between words), and that's when my working memory goes poof.

Also, doing above average at some things, can lead people to totally discount when you're below average at stuff, and vice versa. You didn't have to take the KTEA or Woodcock-Johnson or other such tests of academic achievement, did you?

On the math one, while it seems you'd fare better than I did (since you can do a lot of arithmetic, just that it takes awhile, and is complicated a process), but you'd probably get a much lower-than-accurate score like I did on the math section, due to the difficulties you describe, which would probably cloud your abilities in high math.

They know about you being autistic, correct? Perhaps, rather than putting this in the context of memory, you could put your request in the context of sensory distractions.

At the college I'll be attending, they have free on-on-one tutoring for students enrolled in one of the disability programs. A community college I've been to offered free tutoring for anybody. Ask someone at your college if they have anything like this, and then rather than being tutored on the subject, you could ask them to help you not be too perfectionist, to concentrate on the most important parts of it.

Is there any way you could schedule a direct appointment with one of the people at the disability office, preferably someone who has a lot of knowledge and experience, to explain to them about being good at higher math, but having difficulty with formulas, how you have to re-memorize before every test and hope for the best, despite knowing how to use the formulas? In my college statistic class, we had sheets with the formulas provided, and we just had to know when to use what formula, and use the calculator for the rest.

SInce it's a calculus class, if these other efforts aren't successful, then could you possibly program into your calculator reminders about the formulas? Something to trigger your memory, as putting in the actual formula would probably be difficult in the calculator, for things involving derivatives and integrals. (Of course, if you think that they would consider it cheating, then I would definitely avoid it, as that would be even worse than forgetting a few formulas, and give you an unearned reputation as a cheat.)

I think the best option would be if you could personally discuss tis with someone qualified, to tell them about exactly what difficulties you're having, and how you can do well with short-term memorizing but not on longer-term.

My son has this problem also. We have different types of memories and this is what I found out:

Implicit vs. explicit memory
Declarative vs. procedural memory
Semantic vs. episodic memory
Implicit vs. Explicit Memory

Sometimes information that unconsciously enters the memory affects thoughts and behavior, even though the event and the memory of the event remain unknown. Such unconscious retention of information is called implicit memory.

Example:
Tina once visited Hotel California with her parents when she was ten years old. She may not remember ever having been there, but when she makes a trip there later, she knows exactly how to get to the swimming pool.

Explicit memory is conscious, intentional remembering of information. Remembering a social security number involves explicit memory.

Declarative vs. Procedural Memory
Declarative memory is recall of factual information such as dates, words, faces, events, and concepts. Remembering the capital of France, the rules for playing football, and what happened in the last game of the World Series involves declarative memory. Declarative memory is usually considered to be explicit because it involves conscious, intentional remembering.

Procedural memory is recall of how to do things such as swimming or driving a car. Procedural memory is usually considered implicit because people don’t have to consciously remember how to perform actions or skills.

Semantic vs. Episodic Memory
Declarative memory is of two types: semantic and episodic. Semantic memory is recall of general facts, while episodic memory is recall of personal facts. Remembering the capital of France and the rules for playing football uses semantic memory. Remembering what happened in the last game of the World Series uses episodic memory.

The evaluation you had didn't seem very thorough or explicit. Can you go to a neuropsychologist to get evaluated? This is the type of doctor I took my son to to get evaluated.

I hope this helps.

I went to a neuropsychiatrist--and I really think he was wrong about a lot of stuff! He did get some things right; but he insists that my inattentiveness is because I have generalized anxiety disorder, when my MMPI and two other less well-known personality tests show no particular tendency to be anxious. The problem is that he saw me at the end of a long day in an unfamiliar environment that I'd spent doing tests and socializing, in the full knowledge that those tests might determine my future! Who wouldn't be anxious? And of course he saw my badly botched initial diagnosis, which included GAD.

I got the results from the other eval I did, which was meant to gauge vocational skills and academic aptitude.

Finally!--the inattention-to-detail popped up. Only in one test, but it did. The test was a "work sample" which involved matching shapes from one group to a designated location in another group. I made ten mistakes out of sixty, and we did the test twice and I got the same score both times. (I think an 'acceptable performance' is two mistakes.) I know why, too: I got distracted. Everything from the lights to the people chatting in the next room threw me off. They let me try it twice because the first score was so bad they didn't believe it--they must have thought I had been putting my answers in the wrong slots or something.

I'm very good at noticing details--if I'm paying attention! (On another, more interesting task which involved measuring simulated parts with various jigs, vernier calipers and a micrometer, I got a perfect score. So it's definitely attention, not details.)

Academic aptitude is all in the 99th percentile because they checked high school level stuff and I'm in college. Not a stitch of calculus anywhere. Doesn't tell me much. Math was my lowest score, though. It would be nice if they had tests that extended past high school; they said they gave me the highest level they had, so I guess they did their best. Maybe they are used to evaluating people with high-school educations. It doesn't help me much, though; education can cover up a weakness pretty easily. If you test a dyslexic 12th grader on 1st grade reading, you won't see a weakness, either.

Oh, well, at least now I have proof that I can be inattentive sometimes. Fingers crossed that they give me that quiet testing room!