Can someone have great social skills and still have AS?

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I think you can have good social skill for someone WITH AS but naturally, no, there will always be social issues.

Actually I posted that right after reading the post above. Reading it knocked the confidence right out of me. Sometimes reading about other's socializing is enough to cause me to feel weak and like I can never do it. It's not being unable to do it, it's the dwelling on it, thinking about it all the time, this is what causes me to lack confidence.

C'mon. Social skills, knowing when to smile, eye contact, smalltalk, knowing what to answer to ''Do I look fat in this?', all that...it's just the tip of the iceberg. The serious problems of being an Aspie can't be improved on: the lack of intuition about what your boss likes / dislikes - when you're competing with a team of 10 people who are NOT Aspies and have a thousand times more intuition than you in this regard. Or when you lack the social intuition to pass the nonverbal message that gets you RESPECTED by people, by your spouse, by your colleagues. Or when you lack the most basic empathy to be even the least bit persuasive so people tend to dismiss your opinions and suggestions. Or when you can't have a dog or a cat as a pet because you lack the NT herd type instinct of how to behave like an alpha. Or when you're blind to the reasons behind Management's policy due to lack of theory of mind, and therefore you're last in predicting what will happen in your dept. - and are always the first candidate for dismissal because of your cluelessness and ensuing wrong steps. Or when you lack the minimal theory of mind to figure what would make a girl enjoy your company. Or when you have to choose between making someone enjoy your company and enjoying yourself, because both things at the same time can't happen given the fact that we're so different from NTs. Try solving all this with eye contact, smiles and smalltalk - you're wasting your time and lying to yourself. So-called "social skills" might help you gain a semblance of belonging, but will only expose you to a mountain of situations where we're extremely limited and can't do anything to improve.

You cannot create intuition, I agree - but you can begin to predict based on previous events what will happen. Part of your response, GT, reads as rather defeated and pessimistic. Whether you say you can do a thing, or you cannot do a thing, you are right... we affect ourselves and our actions more than we care to acknowledge. I frequent make major errors in dealing with people, but the attempt is made and I learn from it. I'm not going to become NT, but manage to be more analogous and more capable to dealing with them. To be honest, it still baffles me why my partner enjoys my company - but we're happy together, and I'm not going to waste the effort and lose the time together questioning every reason. While I'm not empathetic, I will ask questions to find out what motivates that person in order to learn how to phrase my answer in the best manner possible for them and their needs. With my menagerie (4 dogs, 5 cats), it probably would help if I were a true Alpha, but instead we have an unusual pack that has learned to adjust with me. It's a practical approach - not emulation, but adaptation. I'm sorry you feel that way, but I do not believe I have wasted my time, because the results have served me well. Please consider that what works for one may not for another... I find it a little irritating to be told I'm lying to myself, essentially, when the experience has been that of truth.


M.

I think Greentea makes a good point. I think that's why I don't try harder. It's because I know if I get too involved with people IRL I will end up losing because in the end they will figure me out and, since I feel like I am among the unenlightened, use me as an excuse to distance themselves or compare themselves to me where I lose.
I know I cannot figure out the deeper drives and motivations. This causes a lot of frustration and anguish for me, and anxiety. I can be a glib person but I cannot be with them 100%. I don't have the stamina to keep trying to figure it out nor the patience to put up with their ridicule and mockery when they discover I cannot figure it out.
Some view it as a weakness and use it as an excuse to limit, which, I think what concerned Synth.
The better I am at being glib, playing along with my superficial social skills, the deeper involved I become if I can fool them just a little, the more involved I am the bigger the risk they will figure me out. I run the risk of rejection or acceptance, often it is rejection.
It is difficult but I believe in personal inner strength. This helps me get through a lot of the difficulties.

Yes, you can ask your spouse clarifying questions and take time out to analyze the issue and replace intuition with reasoning. But you can't do that with most the rest of humanity. In most situations, you have to act fast and on very little info, which only intuition can do. And try explaining to your boss that, while the rest of the team have managed to please him to varying degrees, you offended him because you have little if any theory of mind.

Social intuition can't be socialskilled. And nothing is more defeatist and more I'msorryyoufeelthatway than living in denial. Because it's only when we accept our limitations that we can do something around them.

*shrug* We're going to have to agree to disagree here - because I do ask clarifying questions of the rest of the world. And I've learned to think and decide quickly when needed, and accept that I'll be wrong. Strange thing is, when talking those not on the spectrum, they also make errors... it is interesting to note that in most cases, these occasions do not stick with them the way they have seemed to with me over the years, and for others here on WP. That detachment is something that I think serves the typical mind well, and something I continue to work on in daily practice.

It appears you have specific instances that you're referring to... if so, I am sorry for that negative experience, but it doesn't dictate what will happen to others. As I said before, it's not the same thing - it is an adaptation, the utilization of immense amounts of information and sequential events. Prediction, instead of intuition. And it is exhausting, and time consuming, and frustrating - I'm not arguing that with you at all, Ana - but it is not impossible. I've accepted that I have limitations in some areas, but I refuse to let those limit what I do, or who I am. When we quit trying, we start dying - a simple philosophy that I try to keep in mind when I get discouraged. You make the decisions appropriate for you. I'm going to continue with what works and helps me.


M.

When we quit trying what cannot ever work, we stop being like rats that keep going for cheese where there isn't any and go where we have a chance instead.

Greentea, not to belittle your thinking or your problems, but...it sounds like quite a few of your stresses are job-related. I have a habit of blaming myself for terrible situations, and while I'm not saying that you do, too, I am saying that a person in your situation, feeling they lack social skills, and without keen intuition on others' motivations, could be blind to the fact that the people that surround them are simply a**holes, in a corporate culture which rewards a**hole behavior. Maybe it's time to look at other options?

I agree with Makuranososhi; it is insulting to be told that one is lying to himself/herself. I would never generalize that "so-and-so can hold a good job so I expect you to be able to, too", so I would hope to get the same respect in an opposite fashion. Will aspies ever be the prom kings and queens? Maybe not. Top level executives? Maybe not. But can an aspie get by in life and form meaningful relations with other people? Depends on the aspie, and the other people. Attitude may not be everything, but it plays a factor.

And at least half the battle is finding the right situation/people/job/lover/pets/school/whatever.

Correction: What does not work for you. We disagree, as our processes and situations are different - but it is frustrating that you insist that what does not work for you cannot work for another.


M.

I have a friend ( who has AS without a doubt and probably ADHD ) he has wonderful social skills in the sense that he has a lot of friends who love to be with him, he is never short of company and he is a delight to be around. In the traditional sense, his social skills suck tbh.. he says what he thinks, he talks way too much ( hard to get a word in) he bounces around the room while he's talking, he discusses his current obsessions at great length , even though he may not have an active listener present. His attention is appalling. He does have down time too and spends most of his evenings alone ( through choice ) - I'm busy working on my book this evening, I have a computer game I really have to play, I want to cook this evening and read)
So... how does this guy with social skills that are obviously not the norm have so many friends ( and has had a raft of girlfriends and always has women interested in him?)

1. He is able to laugh at himself ( saying things like " Oh but I have most likely told you that 10 times already ! " )
2. He knows himself well and acknowledges it ( "don't ever follow me.. I have no sense of direction!", " Well you know I cannot concentrate on anything for long haha ! )
3. He is a LOT of fun to be around, he has so much energy and is able to sweep people along with it.
4. He's interesting and smart, and assumes that everyone else is too!
5. He is unfailingly positive.. he is the most positive person I have ever met in my life.

He is a delight to be around, quirky, fun, and smart.

So perhaps it is not all about social skills in the normal sense.. but how you use what you have and how well you are able to accept that is part of who you are and how you are. Everyone wants to be around someone that is confident ( in themselves) and likes themselves, flaws and all. Or should we broaden the definition of social skills, to be socially accepted and liked, despite differences.

Sorry about that :/
Green tea thats exactly what I was getting at... I kind of suck at explaining myself lol oh well.
markuranososhi is right too, questioning things too often can cause problems as well.
I think I know what you mean ana by what you said about my previous posts.. I do not believe anything an aspie does is an excuse to limit.. I believe what we are limits us in many ways. I do not believe many of us are weak either, to put up with this kind of s**t requires much strength, in my earlier years when things were significantly harder as I was exposed to society all the time and had a more harmful homelife, I was surprised I did not commit suicide. But we have made it this far it would be a shame to give up now, however I still believe my life would have been significantly happier and more fulfilling if I did not have this neurological condition. I do not dwell on this fact that I have aspergers, only the continuous and past hardships that no one else around me has is what I cannot get over. I won't bring it up anymore though, believe it or not I do not enjoy talking about negative crap either LOL, I just seem to be able to express it more, maybe even at the wrong times.. oh well. You showed interest in what kind of stuff goes on in my head, some of which you can find in my first post which mostly pertains to AS related traits, some not.
Saffy, your friend seems to have a bit in common with me, I don't have a sense of direction either lol, or time in that matter.

Try asking clarifying questions the CEO during his extremely indirect speech on what kind of employee will remain in the company with this economic crisis and which kind will be sent home.

Try asking clarifying questions the attacker when you don't have the theory of mind to figure out at least a little bit in a split second what a human might do next.

Or try to interest them in your smalltalk, well-timed smiles, eye contact, listening skills, and your course in "social skills".

It's like trying to play tennis with another 3 players when you're the only one who doesn't see the ball. You can have impeccable social skills, but you'll still lose the game and look totally clueless all the same. Better play chess.

Again, that falls under prediction... interrupting a public meeting has failed me in the past, so I will approach him afterwards. If I'm being attacked, then I must assume that I am threatened and therefore need to protect instead of care about the needs of the attacker. You've latched onto one aspect and continue to bang in against every obstacle... and that approach won't work for anyone, in my estimation. From my perception... you consider it a game, I consider it a tool; you expect to become something else entirely, I expect to become more of myself. We're just too far apart on perspective right now.


M.

makuranososhi, I wasn't talking to you, actually, but giving more examples of situations where reasoning can't replace the social intuition we lack.

Appreciate the clarification... I still find myself in disagreement, from a hypothetical standpoint, when a more predictive approach is taken, but as I said - different situations, different people.


M.