HOW DO YOU ARGUE WITH THE IGNORANT??????????

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vint
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19 Jan 2009, 5:34 am

Let me tell you, Adam Anti Um, if you were my friend and did something like that, you would`ve lost a friend.

Quote:

admit, that I do have a lot of very course left-wing views, and to the untrained ear I can appear as coming across as arogant, inflexible, childish and immature, but it seems people are never willing to look through the blunt nature of my words to see the message inside.

Well, if you have "a message" then why don`t you deliver the message instead of your "very course left-wing views" ?

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I recognised the fact that I didn't have to do anything besides add the application, however I simply didn't wish to.

You simply didn`t wish to help your friend. I got it. Apparently she is not important enough for you.

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The idea of the game is not to my liking and with all due respect I wish to never be a part of it.

Why?

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My girlfriend however failed to grasp this simple idea.

Is she stupid? What is so hard to grasp here? You were just being selfish. This is very simple indeed.

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Now, as you can imagine, already I'm dealing with ignorance

If they don`t understand something, explain it to them.

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Can anyone give me any feedback on this issue? Was anyone in the wrong?

Well, people are supposed to help their friends. Men are supposed to help their women.
You are a selfish, antisocial person. Do YOU like selfish people?

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Who was the ignorant one?

Probably she was... Does she know about your diagnosys?

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Please, be honest.

Honesty is a terrible thing, Adam.

outlier
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19 Jan 2009, 6:20 am

If you give in to people who are being disrespectful to you, you are giving in to a form of bullying.

vint
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19 Jan 2009, 6:31 am

outlier wrote:

If you give in to people who are being disrespectful to you, you are giving in to a form of bullying.

My grandma said to me once: "If you want to piss people off, just tell them like it is."
LOL.

marshall
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19 Jan 2009, 2:02 pm

vint wrote:

Quote:

I recognised the fact that I didn't have to do anything besides add the application, however I simply didn't wish to.

You simply didn`t wish to help your friend. I got it. Apparently she is not important enough for you.

There’s often a glaring double standard with these kinds of things though. Besides relatives, how many NT’s are willing to listen to an aspie monologue about their own interest? Most will not listen and will even be rude. Yet when it comes to the latest fad activity that bores you to tears you are obligated to participate.

Last edited by marshall on 19 Jan 2009, 2:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.

NocturnalQuilter
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19 Jan 2009, 2:06 pm

outlier wrote:

If you give in to people who are being disrespectful to you, you are giving in to a form of bullying.

Bullying is HIGHLY over-rated.

Adam-Anti-Um
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19 Jan 2009, 2:23 pm

TheMidnightJudge wrote:

Seriously though, wouldn't it have just been easier to humor her? She wasn't asking if you wanted to sign up, she was asking you to sign up, for her. It wouldn't be that hard, you can't give a little?
I don't think it is a matter of her ignorance...

Simply because it is not my kind of thing. You would not expect a die hard and unshakeable hip-hop fan to listent to death metal. That's both unfair and selfish. You can ask, fair enough. But if the person refuses, if it is something they have a CHOICE and a RIGHT to refuse, then they should be PERMITTED to refuse.

The truth of the matter, as I have discovered, is that my girlfriend was actually joking when she asked me to join, and in her own way carried on the joke WITHOUT ME KNOWING IT WAS A JOKE. Then, she mentioned my refusal to my friend, and my friend took it upon herself to turn the matter into something serious and much more hostile.

The thing is, if the tables were turned, I would STILL be the one who would have to apologise and I would be treated as the bad guy.

Surely you people understand the difference between changing your own personality and behaviour purely to suit someone else, and holding on to your self-fortitude and having the strength and conviction to stand up for what you believe in.

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Adam-Anti-Um
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19 Jan 2009, 2:40 pm

vint wrote:

Let me tell you, Adam Anti Um, if you were my friend and did something like that, you would`ve lost a friend.

Well, for that, with all due respect, I'm glad I'm not your friend. I prefer friends who are willing to see though my behaviour and see the good intentions.

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Well, if you have "a message" then why don`t you deliver the message instead of your "very course left-wing views" ?

Because my message and my views go hand in hand. Simple as that.

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I recognised the fact that I didn't have to do anything besides add the application, however I simply didn't wish to.

You simply didn`t wish to help your friend. I got it. Apparently she is not important enough for you.

For the record, it was my friend carrying the torch of the argument that was the major issue. And my firend didnt need me to do anything. It was my girlfriend who needed me to add the app, but while me and my friend were arguing, my girlfriend realised that someone else had added the application, she had defeated the rival and that mystery person had removed the application, so essentially what the matter had boiled down to was my friend arguing the toss over my refusal to add an application THAT I HAD NO INTEREST IN, and the fact that SHE COULDN'T GRASP THIS CONCEPT.

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The idea of the game is not to my liking and with all due respect I wish to never be a part of it.

Why?

Do I have to explain myself always? What more explanation must I provide further than the very virtue that the game isn't to my liking and I don't want anything to do with it?

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My girlfriend however failed to grasp this simple idea.

Is she stupid? What is so hard to grasp here? You were just being selfish. This is very simple indeed.

She is not stupid. Just resistant to the idea that I may not want to join the herd and add the application. Simple as the issue may be, but you fail to see that my will to stand by my decision to refuse. THAT is what is simple. I don't see it as my place to force someone to do something they don't wish to do. If it is really THAT important, then I will simply accept the refusal, and ASK SOMEONE ELSE. Which by the way, taking into consideration that there are OVER 100 OTHER PEOPLE SHE COULD ASK, that would be a viable option.

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Now, as you can imagine, already I'm dealing with ignorance

If they don`t understand something, explain it to them.

I spend the vast majority of my life explaining myself and my actions to other people. I reiterate my points and rephrase them to cover all my bases and ensure that I am understood. If they STILL choose not to heed my words, then it is therefore NO LONGER my problem, and therefore theirs.

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Can anyone give me any feedback on this issue? Was anyone in the wrong?

Well, people are supposed to help their friends. Men are supposed to help their women.
You are a selfish, antisocial person. Do YOU like selfish people?

Personally I wouldn't say I am selfish. Merely strong willed. You may agree with this, you may not. I do however respect your honesty. Given the idea of what people are "supposed" to do, I dissagree. With the given scenario that we are discussing, the fact of the matter is I don't HAVE to do anything.

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Who was the ignorant one?

Probably she was... Does she know about your diagnosys?

Yes, she is fully aware of my diagnosis. She has read countless sources of literature concerning Asperger's Syndrome, and yet she still complains about the consequences of my behaviour. She expressed this to me last night and I told her "It's one thing to HAVE knowledge, but it's another thing to APPLY knowledge."

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Please, be honest.

Honesty is a terrible thing, Adam.

I agree, but as I said, i completely respect, facilitate and appreciate your honesty.

Tantybi
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19 Jan 2009, 3:14 pm

Um, girlfriends do that. She could have been mad at you about something else. I usually complain to my friends about lots of things my husband does that ticks me off, sort of, but I usually do that when I'm mad about something else (usually something I can't totally pin point what it is). Now, if any of his friends PM'd me or texted me on the subject, I would not be kind. All my friends (except my mother, but only when she's mad at me rather than me mad at my husband) would never contact my husband on my behalf. It's not their place.

On the application, I was kinda curious as to what it was because I was invited to join one. But, I figure mafia wars in real life is a spectator sport, so I didn't download it online.

Either way, I could see if I had a friend who wanted me to join really bad, and if it were that important to them, I could be a good friend and join. But, I also would be insulted if my friend based our entire friendship on a stupid game. In my case, my friends should know better than to ask me at this point like that because they know how much I (as well as my kids) compete against the XBOX 360 for my husband's attention. There are so many more important things in life than a stupid game, and to sit there and put a huge principle on it is ridiculous. Besides, the principle of the matter is not going to pay your bills or help you to survive, so if that's all your girlfriend is about, let her destroy something good over a principle and see if it's worth it to her. Otherwise, she needs to recognize that she's hussing and fussing about a stupid game, and if you are Aspergers, you need someone with a lot more substance than that in your life (in other words, she better figure that out if she wants to keep you).

I have gotten into many an argument with stupid people (sometimes loved ones, sometimes strangers). You do have options though in those situations. Sometimes when I'm feeling charitable, I just let them be stupid. I don't always have to prove I'm right, and other people are allowed to be wrong. I figure God made some people stupid for a reason. But other things I can't stand aside and let it be that way, especially when they make allegations against my intelligence or intentions. Which case, most of the time, I go with strict logic, and I call out things when I see it. Like for instance, my mother is notorious for changing the argument from logic based (when she starts losing) to emotion based (like, you just don't care about your mother type thing, even when we are talking about my daughter, somehow, she switches it back to her like I'm attacking her feelings). When that happens, I call her out on it. I flat out say, "You are just trying to switch from logic based arguments to emotive based ones because you ran out of logic that works in your favor." With my mom, it's effective to get her to stop doing stuff like that, but I don't know what she's thinking on it. So I can't say it's effective or not except that when I argue with my husband and call him out on things (like you are just mad because you didn't get to go to band practice), it works like a charm. The other thing I do most often with strangers, especially when I'm in a playful mood, I will pull some psychological bs on them. I don't know how to explain it well, but the best way to show it would be to tell you to watch some Law and Order Criminal Intent episodes, and watch the actor that played Gomer Pile in Full Metal Jacket (and he was the cockroach in Men In Black). His character portrays it well with psychotic people, but I do similar games with stupid people (but I have to be in a playful mood for it).

silentbob15
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19 Jan 2009, 3:18 pm

Why bother arguing with the ignorant, isn't that a sure sign of being ignorant yourself, I believe its best to walk away
from fools, because no matter how good your argument may be, it would still be lost on someone not willing to listen.

Transplantman
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19 Jan 2009, 3:24 pm

CelticRose wrote:

marshall wrote:

Isn't it annoying how they have a double standard too? Do NT's ever humor you by participating in your own interests? No way. They figure that because they have greater numbers they have the right to coerce you into their activities but you can't make them participate in your interests if they're too 'weird' to them. Stupid group conformity crap.

QFT. It's also extremely frustrating that they expect you to bend over backwards to spare their feelings, yet they think it's perfectly okay to tromp all over your feelings, and say you're being childish when you protest.

I have to wonder at the quality of your "friends". I don't quite get the "cheese" comment, but I gather they're being dismissive of your thoughts and feelings. In my experience, real friends don't do that.

As for your girlfriend, I have learned over the years that it is much wiser to mind my own business when it comes to others' romantic interests. :wink:

I'd just like to say "Amen" to this and the general theme of this thread. I find it terribly difficult to fake interest in things I percieve as inane; reality shows, chain letters, dumbass urban legends, facebook apps (at first Facebook in general), celebrity gossip etc. People get seriously offended when I shrug them off or give them my straight dope on things, or won't pretend to like American Idol, yet they wouldn't ever give me the time of day they expect from me.

marshall
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19 Jan 2009, 4:01 pm

Transplantman wrote:

CelticRose wrote:

marshall wrote:

It really comes down to finding intelligent people as friends. People with empty heads are really good at engendering interest in whatever activity allows them to relate to the greatest number of other empty headed people. It's kind of like how a group of monkeys might learn to enjoy scratching their ass a certain way because that's how all the other monkeys scratch their asses.

I'm a milder aspie socially but I'd much rather sit and listen to an aspie go on and on about some weird obscure topic that I don't care too much about than sit around a bunch of NT's discussing the latest American Idol. Both are boring but in the former setting I might at least learn something new.

Tantybi
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19 Jan 2009, 4:08 pm

Transplantman wrote:

CelticRose wrote:

marshall wrote:

My sister thinks I'm nuts for hating American Idol. But you'll never see her sit through an episode of Future Weapons.

I do myspace, not facebook, but I don't get into the chain letters. When I get one I like the context, I delete the part where you got to send it to x amount of people for good y things to happen or if you don't, then all these bad z things will happen. I tried to start one without the chain part telling people to rise above the chain by reposting this, but only one person did. I wish I could remember how I worded it. It was so well worded.

I will say though I am a sucker for celebrity gossip on Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, but only the general story. I just think Angelina's freaking awesome.

ValMikeSmith
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19 Jan 2009, 7:37 pm

I wouldn't install a known TROJAN VIRUS on my computer
even if 12 models offered to have sex with me if I did.

AdaMANtium, You're The Man! :cheers:

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Death_of_Pathos
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19 Jan 2009, 8:43 pm

HOW DO YOU ARGUE WITH THE IGNORANT??????????

Foolishly.

vint
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20 Jan 2009, 4:30 am

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There’s often a glaring double standard with these kinds of things though.

We are talking about friends, aren`t we? Not random people.

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Besides relatives, how many NT’s are willing to listen to an aspie monologue about their own interest?

Well, I once endured a SIX hour long aspie monologue. It was kinda interesting at first... then I became very tired... still I was listening. I was a polite kid :lol:

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Most will not listen and will even be rude. Yet when it comes to the latest fad activity that bores you to tears you are obligated to participate.

I didn`t understand you. Obligated?

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Well, for that, with all due respect, I'm glad I'm not your friend. I prefer friends who are willing to see though my behaviour and see the good intentions.

You don`t have many friends, do you?

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Because my message and my views go hand in hand. Simple as that.

You said "untrained" people don`t get your message.

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THAT I HAD NO INTEREST IN, and the fact that SHE COULDN'T GRASP THIS CONCEPT.

I repeat. Is she stupid?

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Do I have to explain myself always?

No. But generally it`s a good idea.

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She is not stupid.

Then why did she fail to grasp a simple concept?

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as the issue may be, but you fail to see that my will to stand by my decision to refuse. THAT is what is simple.

I didn`t fail to see that. Actually, I never said your decision was wrong, did I? However, every decision has consequences.

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I reiterate my points and rephrase them to cover all my bases and ensure that I am understood. If they STILL choose not to heed my words, then it is therefore NO LONGER my problem, and therefore theirs.

If they are that stupid, you`d better leave them to their own devices. You are not their parent or teacher, are you?
If you want to talk about it more, tell me, what exactly are your views and your message.

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Personally I wouldn't say I am selfish. Merely strong willed.

One has nothing to do with the other.

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Given the idea of what people are "supposed" to do, I dissagree. With the given scenario that we are discussing, the fact of the matter is I don't HAVE to do anything.

I never said you HAD to do what she asked, did I?

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Yes, she is fully aware of my diagnosis. She has read countless sources of literature concerning Asperger's Syndrome, and yet she still complains about the consequences of my behaviour.

Well, it appears she`s stupid.
Most of NTs are dumb. Get used to it.

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I agree, but as I said, i completely respect, facilitate and appreciate your honesty.

I liked your response, Adam.

Hovis
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20 Jan 2009, 9:53 am

CelticRose wrote:

marshall wrote:

It's supposed to be us who lack the theory of mind that NTs have, but I've often thought that it's actually the other way around. They simply cannot conceive of anyone thinking or feeling in a fundamentally different way to them ('everybody's different' only extending as far as surface preferences) so, in their minds, anyone who does appear to be deviating from this norm must simply be doing it deliberately to be mean/awkward and deserves to be ganged up on and shouted down.

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