HOW DO YOU ARGUE WITH THE IGNORANT??????????

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You don`t have many friends, do you? [/quote]

Not having mountains of friends doesn't concern me. I prefer the few rare understanding people. I'm not shallow enough to want so many friends that I lose count of that I can't call REAL friends.


You said "untrained" people don`t get your message. [/quote]

Exactly my point. Ignorant people care not for the words of an Aspie. Especially if it conflicts with their own ideals.


I repeat. Is she stupid? [/quote]

No, far from it. She's an NT, and further than that she's an NT female. With all due respect to her wanting to get her own way regardless of all else is one of her virtues. But I love her all the same simply because she takes no offence and stands by me. She can strop for England when she realises she's in the wrong but that doesn't make her a bad person, or a stupid person. We both just have to try that little bit harder to understand each other.


No. But generally it`s a good idea. [/quote]

Well I actually enjoy explaining myself. It helps me clarify things within myself as well as to other people. I just don't feel I am obligated to to it all the time.


Then why did she fail to grasp a simple concept? [/quote]

Like I said, she's an NT female.


I didn`t fail to see that. Actually, I never said your decision was wrong, did I? However, every decision has consequences. [/quote]

True. But I'm a man who stands by his word and sticks by his guns.


If they are that stupid, you`d better leave them to their own devices. You are not their parent or teacher, are you?
If you want to talk about it more, tell me, what exactly are your views and your message. [/quote]

I do leave them to their own devices eventually. My views and message in a nutshell is the endeavour of the pursuit of knowledge, understanding, freedom, truth and justice. To expose the ignorance and corruption of others and encourage similar traits in others around me. I do tend to find myself bashing my head against a brick wall with some people, but I do come to the conclusion that the traits i possess and the things I strive for don't always match that of others. It's then that I have to back down and walk away. Coz some people simply don't WANT to wake up.


One has nothing to do with the other. [/quote]

Exactly. Which is why I say that I am not selfish, but strong willed.


I never said you HAD to do what she asked, did I? [/quote]

No, but I feel I must cover my bases to prove the legitimacy of my intentions so as for you all to better understand and see the truth of the circumstances I am illustrating to you.


Well, it appears she`s stupid.
Most of NTs are dumb. Get used to it. [/quote]

Yes, I am used to it, however I do live in hope since I believe in the fundamental goodness of others and the hope that ignorance for most of us at least is a temporary self-imposed disability.


I liked your response, Adam.[/quote]

Why thankyou.

Hovis I wish I could shake your hand, you hit the nail right on the head.

I also enjoy how refreshing it is simply to listen to someone who's genuinely enthusiastic about a topic, without caring whether or not it's something they 'should' be heard to be talking about.

Could even American Idol seem slightly less boring if someone knew every background detail about American Idol, ran an American Idol online fan community, and could talk for hours about American Idol whether anybody else around them was interested or not? Possibly.

Yes of course, and why?


Good for you.


I don't understand what you don't understand.

This is what brought on my thought. My experience is that if I'm friends with one person with whom I share common interests they will often invite me into the larger circle of friends who bore me. Not going along with the group activity is considered rude so I go along and endure the boredom. It seems expected of me to go to their superbowl party where I'm bored out of my mind for hours. Do you think I'm being overly polite?

What is it with your quotes, Adam?

OK.


Ignorant=don`t know something. What is it that they don`t know?
Or maybe by "ignorant" you mean something else?
Like, "idiots"?


So what?


Both these group are very diverse. What kind of NT female is she?


You are stubborn?


I mean, it sounds like "I`m not selfish, but American". Surely you can be both selfish and strong willed.


Oh, I see. What is the "fundamental goodness", by the way? People can do really horrible things, and they do them all the time.


Why what? Why double standards? I guess, you are someone`s friend, but he is not your friend, that`s why.


Not really. It was not better than being stubborn and rude. It was not an optimal way of interacting with people. I mean, not always.
Still, I wasn`t dumb... I`ve never talked with this person again.


And what exactly is the problem? Explain to him that you don`t want to go. If he doesn`t understand, get rid of him.
This is the situation when you really can use a bit of Adam`s "strong will"
It`s one thing to install a freaking videogame in order to help your girlfriend, and entirely another to spend several hours and get nothing but boredom, isn`t it?

By the way, do Americans really talk about American Idol all the time? What is American Idol? A reality show?

Oh, another "by the way".

Adam, how did you figure it out? She told you so?

Have you, also, ever been sitting quietly on your own, engrossed in what you happen to be doing, and found that people insist on coming over and trying to engage in mindless chat? They assume you must be bored/lonely by yourself because they would be. They can't employ theory of mind and consider that perhaps another person is different and might be perfectly content by themselves.

You make a mistake by using the term "ignorance" for the situation in the original post.

Your disagreement has nothing at all to do with ignorance, and your use of the word is condenscending. It's easy to dismiss an idea that is ignorant; it is not so easy to dismiss one that isn't. It may well be a self-defense mechanism, that you would choose to place these situations into such terms, but it doesn't change the fact that the first moment you allow yourself to see your opponent as ignorant you have lost all chance of reasonable resolution or compromise.

What you are facing are different expectations as to what a relationship means and what it involves. There are no right or wrongs with that except that it is very hard to stay in a relationship when the two parties fail to be in agreement on what it means.

In relationships, people do things they don't care for simply to make the other person happy. Really. There is no other way to keep things working; at some point, each person chooses to go with what the other wants because they choose the relationship over personal preference. In a good relationship, the situations balance each other, and both parties are satisfied. When a relationship is meant to be, the balance comes about fairly naturally; yes, it takes work, but it's enriching, not frustrating. In a bad relationship, well ...

She's mad at you not because of the game, but because you are showing her that your opinion is of more value than the relationship. That's a little too far down on the scale to make her feel valued.

Some women may be able to understand that you aren't saying anything about the relationship, that this is just who you are. Others won't be able to.

So, you have to choose. Do you adjust how you view relationships, or do you hold onto your position and accept that this relationship may be the casualty?


----

Edit

I've read more of the thread and it seems the two of you have come to an understanding. Good. I am glad for that.

Back onto the use of words like stupid and ignorant ...

I am worried about saying this, because you all are going to hate it, but it seems like a bad AS habit to assign stupidity or ignorance to everyone who fails to listen or understand you. That basically digs the gulf deeper.

Consider the example of a political debate. I really enjoy a good debate; I am fascinated by how intelligent people can reach completely different conclusions, and it's fun to test my ideas against that of a worthy opponent. But should I engage in a debate with someone who decides that I am ignorant or stupid simply for not agreeing with them or having trouble seeing their point, I would shut off. There would be no point in carrying on, becasue we wouldn't be debating, we'd be fighting. When a person talks to someone they see as ignorant or stupid, their goal becomes to educate that person. Not to reach common ground, not engage in debate, but to shove information down their throats. No one wants to be on the receiving end of that.

If you want people to act without ignorance or stupidity, you have to assume they are thoughtful and intelligent, and you have to approach interactions with respect for that.

The minute you allow a different thought to creep into your mind, you create a self-fulfilling prophecy: they are going to act ignorant and stupid, because there isn't any other choice. And they are going to cut you off.

Does that make sense?

Actually, it doesn`t.
She was kidding... yeah, sure, of course


Whay if you are engaging in a debate with someone who decides you are ignorant or stupid simply because you are ignorant or stupid?
(I`m not talking about you personally. I don`t know you)


Oh really?
A person? Everyone wants to educate idiots? Come on!


What makes you think so?
I`ve seen lots of idiots in my life, and their stupidity had nothing to do with me.


No.

Last edited by vint on 20 Jan 2009, 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Well ...

I don't know how to explain it, I guess, but I've seen the problem with my son and with my husband, and it's the main reason they can turn people off or antagonize them so fast. I actually tend to take it as a challenge, but most people don't. They don't want to deal with someone who is so certain they've got the only right answer, that they aren't willing to REALLY listen to the other side. It comes through, when you think the other person is being ignorant or stupid, and it is very off-putting. It's an insult. So, they walk away. To you, it confirms that they are ignorant or stupid. To them, they are avoiding someone borish and rude. Usually, neither is right, but the missunderstanding perpetuates.

You make the point very well here!

I also wish there was less NT bashing in the threads in WP! Generalising all NTs as stupid (can't remember the poster for that point!)- now that is ignorance!

Arguing with the ignorant would be a waste of breath, so I avoid doing that. But everybody is ignorant to some degree, even Adamantium. Ignorance is a sprectrum with one end the mind of a newborn baby and the other being total omniscience. We all fall somewhere in between those two extremes.

If you keep referring to others as ignorant, what are you implying about yourself?

And you`ve immidiatly decided that I (since it was I who used the word "stupid" here) have the same problem?
That wasn`t very smart, madame



No it is not. The problem is that they don`t know how not to antagonize people, or don`t want to do that.


Or at least to pretend that they are REALLY listening


No. When I think it, it doesn`t come through. No one is a mind reader.


No. To ME, it confirms that they are offended. Nothing more.

Last edited by vint on 20 Jan 2009, 6:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Please, remember who that moron was! I`ll kick the crap out of him!! !!

I suppose I should just forget about having friends then. In my experience this type of thing is the rule more than the exception. If you've never experienced this then either you got lucky or people just treat you better.

I don't see any need to argue on any point other than that I think my complaint/grievance is a valid one.

Why wasn't it better than being stubborn and rude? You can't expect someone like that to automatically know that you aren't enjoying the interaction. They shouldn't be punished with rudeness for something they're unaware of.

Why can't you just be honest? Listen to them for a little while then tell them you'd really like to go do something else when you get bored?

That seems rude to me.

You're probably right and I realize this. It's just that when it takes me so much effort to make friends it's hard to just tell them to get lost, especially if there are times when I do enjoy the person's company. Also, I'm really [not] asking for any advice. I was just pointing out my frustration with this kind of thing, commenting about situations I thought were similar to the topic of this thread.

First off I do think Adam might have been a little too stubborn with his GF but I can still relate to what he's saying. Second I think that's kind of a straw man argument. I have a much milder version of AS/autism than someone who would do that.

No but American Idol is a good example of the kind of thing people talk about. It's a reality competition show. Other than that I don't know too much.

Last edited by marshall on 20 Jan 2009, 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

OK. I understood.


I was very tired.


Monologue Well, I was a kid. Like, 15 years old. I did expect him to know it. I was thinking "What`s WRONG with him? F..ck!"


Mother Nature is cruel. It`s not punishment, it`s removal of autistic genes from the gene pool. I guess in the african savannah he would`ve died from stress at a very young age.
I`m reading "love and dating" forum... it`s still like in the savannah (the removal of the genes).
Well, at least Adam has a girlfriend... frankly, I`d like to talk with her.


This is not how it works. If you are not social enough, you are at a HUGE disadvantage. We the sentient apes, are social creatures. It`s who we are.
Of course I can be honest and tell them like it is... this is a good way to make a lot of enemies and to lose friends Sorry, THIS is how it works. The rules of the game were created when language(s) didn`t even exist. Hence the problem.


I guess so.


I understood.


And I cannot.
I can understand that intellectually, but I can`t relate.
I`m not sure the way he treats his girl has something to do with autism, though.


OK.

It all makes me quite sad... people on this forum are sentient too, not ret*ds or scizophrenics, but I can`t relate to them.
I don`t have any advices or anything... I`d rather not post here anymore.

Okay. That’s understandable. At 15 I probably would’ve thought the same thing. I was more like that kid when I was 7 or so (a monologue-er).


Well I think the genes aren’t being removed as much as in the past and that’s why the incidence of autism is increasing.

Well I think we’re sentient enough as a species to make exceptions to some social conventions for some individuals where there is knowledge of a disability. If it’s going to be the law of the jungle we might as well go all out and start acting like brutes. If someone’s rude/annoying the new social convention is to club the motherf***er over the head. Problem solved. Yay!

Yup. I think we’re all aware that as*holes often have to lie in order to not be seen as as*holes. I don’t really care what people say, I care what they think. If I suspect someone’s hiding something from me I just assume they’re an as*hole.

It’s nice to know that it isn’t just us that lacks empathy (not an insult to you). I admit that I can’t relate to most people and most people can’t relate to me. The inability to relate goes both ways, it’s just that we get pegged with it because we have the minority perspective.