Manipulative aspies.

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This happens a lot. There was a great thread on this topic in "Love & Dating" last year.

What happens is that a lot of NT's are "mind blind" about how we are "mind blind". They don't get that we don't know what we're doing when we misstep. So they think that the little mistakes we make are on purpose to be sarcastic, insulting, etc. When it's someone we're close to, they know we're not trying to hurt them, but they tend to take these misinterpretations of our behavior and believe that we're being "manipulative".

So if I'm packing food for a road trip, and I take forever, my husband might think I'm stalling or trying to show my anger at something. He'll say, "You know we have to get on the road by 10 o'clock or we'll get stuck in rush hour, you're stalling on purpose to make me angry." But actually I'm not stalling, I just have to pack things in a certain order and in a certain way, and I'm really not able to change that or speed things up much. An NT would look at my not speeding up and not cutting corners as being "passive aggressive" or "manipulative". But I can't help it, because I won't be able to pack unless I do it a certain way.

So I think that maybe your parents know that you love them and that you aren't trying to hurt them or insult them. But when there are mistakes that you make that they think you are doing on purpose, maybe they think that you're being "manipulative".

I have to tell my husband, this is why I'm doing this, then he remembers.

It is true about not liking the idea of being manipulated. It's strange because sometimes it doesn't bother me while at other times I get these feelings when I am being manipulated, ones of annoyance and stubborness.
I start to resent, but not every time. It's when someone asks me to do something and I don't feel like doing it right then, like when someone used to demand I put my clothes in the dryer right away. For some reason that particular thing annoyed me. It's sorta like being manipulated. My response was "I'll do it later" That would only escalate things.
So do I like being manipulated? I would say no. I would say that I do manipulate to some extent, but not as much as I see others manipulating. I am not as good at manipulating as people in relationships with the opposite sex. I think about those and realize most free time is spent manipulating. At times it seems like all a relationship is is two people manipulating each other on a tiring basis. I don't have the strength to be that manipulative IRL.

Manaspielation topic

You can only be manipulated if you play the game.

If you do not play, you cannot be used.

That is it.

I agree with that. But with qualifications:

It's easy to get sucked in at first. Especially because none of us are perfect and have personal insecurities and vanities. But you get to a point where you realize that it's a battle and a game.

Then, after that, once you become aware that there's something going on, you have to make a conscious decision to give in or engage in a battle.

For some people who have been bullied a lot, making the decision to get run out of town, give the other person your toys and/or let them beat up on you at pleasure, is a difficult one.

I think that the right decision is twofold:

(1) Recognize that there can be "rightness" in the other person's behavior. In the example in the summary above, the parent wanted the kid to be a better student, more obedient daughter, etc. So even if the person is doing something wrongly, they may have good intentions, really. So if the person is right in some of the things that they are trying to use their aggression for, I think that you have to respect them enough to think about what that is.

(2) Recognize where your own ego, vanity, insecurity or fears (fears of bullying?) may have made you vulnerable to reacting badly or a victim. And stop doing that "bad" or self-defeating stuff to yourself, too.

Then, the situation might resolve.

My husband hates that. He used to tell me that I knew that I wasn't going to do it later, why was I telling him that? But then I really intended to get around to it but my executive function gets away from me...

Quoting Mechanima:

I've come across this same type - the I "can't" lie, it's "impossible" for me to lie - type." Trouble is, I think these types might actually believe what they say because most of the time, in most situations they would have a very difficult time lying for ethical reasons. It would bother their conscience, they would obsess over the lie, so rather than go through all that, they will readily admit wrongdoing when they have done wrong. So in this way, the I "can't" lie statement or belief would seem to be true when it is actually a case of "I "choose" not to lie because I believe lying is wrong. It's like the George Washington quote: "Father, I can not tell a lie." Now we know George could tell a lie if he wanted to, but he chose not to. (probably because the evidence of his guilt was overwhelming his finger prints on the axe, an eye witness, wood chips in his boots - so telling a lie would be foolish and bring down even more wrath from his father.) I think that with Aspies who say they "can't" lie it is more a case of their thinking that their perceptions are infallible. If they think they are right - they must be right. So, if for example, this type is accused of stealing a cookie from a cookie jar, and they, in fact, did not steal the cookie from the cookie car, they would say, No, I did not steal the cookie, in addition to being indignant, possibly fuming, that anyone would accuse them of such a thing. Then, this kind of thinking might carry over into situations where subjective perceptions differ and the I "cant" lie-type equates his or her perceptions with the truth, the whole truth and the only truth. When actually, it's just his or her perception of what went down.

On the other hand if you play it well the game can be an awful lot of fun. Especially if you get to spend a lot of time screwing over some of the nasty NTs. (Note here I am not saying that all NT's are nasty, before someone jumps on me)

On lying: I think it depends on neurology. Really, I think it's a brain thing. Some AS who are systemizers can't compartmentalize and I'm one of them. I can't distinguish between a step and a full thing. All the parts of the system are all the system and the system is all the parts.

The inability to compartmentalize means that I can't lie (or if I lie it's obvious and painful) and I can't act well. But it also means I can't work well on one part of the system when I don't understand the whole thing or vice versa.

So I'm actually very limited in my range of functioning intellectually, in that I only have a few modes of abstract thinking. I think of what I have as a kind of High I.Q. retardation.

I think maybe it is that type of AS person who has a hard time lying.

Basically any aspie who feels morally bound to obey the ethics code laid out by society has a problem lying. I freed myself from such stupidity a long long time ago.

Basically any aspie who feels morally bound to obey the ethics code laid out by society has a problem lying. I freed myself from such stupidity a long long time ago.[/quote]

I've thought about that. This is a really important question but I was never able to do it. How did you free yourself from your social behavior codes without becoming socially disoriented? It's not as if I can surf on a wave of real-time empathy. What social code or system gives structure to your behavior, then? Do you have more of a social empathy than some AS?

I've thought about that. This is a really important question but I was never able to do it. How did you free yourself from your social behavior codes without becoming socially disoriented? It's not as if I can surf on a wave of real-time empathy. What social code or system gives structure to your behavior, then? Do you have more of a social empathy than some AS?[/quote]
This may sound slightly cliche, but I suppose the main thing is I really do believe in myself and know what I want socially. What I personally did (I offer no guarantees as to whom it will work for) is looked at all my social codes, sat down for a long length of time then looked at a load of books on political obligation, social skills for executives. Then I went out and met loads of people who are probably on the spectrum and looked out how they live their lives. Finally I experimented a lot, the university environment is one of the best places to experiment, if not the best. After all that, I pretty much now know what my cake is and how to eat it. Seems I am not the only one to have done something like this either.

Well, I've done some of the last steps, and social psychology study too. I suppose the key is that you have an inner confidence that maybe I lack. I do know that confidence and a low expectations (of my social success) feeds into poor performance socially. It sounds to me that your secret ingredient is the belief in yourself that frees you from being confused and disoriented.

Thanks for reminding me of this! That is really, really beneficial. I think we can focus so much on mind-blindness and other limiting cognitive features of social behavior that we forget the freeing effect of inspired confidence.

Thanks so much for this reply.

No problem. Two things I missed off though:
(a) Arrogance can work in succeeding socially, the only catch is it might not be a price worth paying. Try to stick within the bounds of confidence, difficult it may be.
(b) Asides the very basics socially, the key thing to (a) and actually doing well in the social game is conversation. If you are good at this, most problems go away. I would really recommend Leil Lowndes tips book on this as a starting point.

That's me too. Unlike jellyfish, some people manipulate me though

When I notice manipulation I start looking for the emergency button... to stop the world.

You are manipulated absolutely everywhere though. What you actually notice just scratches the surface. The key thing is to learn how to manipulate others.

Thanks again! I will order this book. I have mingling tips stuff but never actually got a conversation book... this makes sense for me to get one since I've been practicing verbal skills for about a couple of years now and am getting much better, verbally. Maybe good enough to start thinking about conversation.

How do you strategize a conversation when you don't have social impulses or a social agenda? It is at this stage that both learning manipulation and learning social drives tend to fail because of the lack of social drive or interest. Do you intentionally simulate a social interest? Or are you one of those AS who has social strategy and agendas?

Sorry to keep asking you Q...